dullturtle06
Active Member
One can only dream of a unified national highway signage in canada.
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- Thread starter Streety McCarface
- Start date
micheal_can
Senior Member
My fantasy - remove all tolls on the 407 and widen it as much as possible to act as a better bypass. The 413 would become unnecessary.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I would hate for the 407 to lose it's tolls, TBH. It's value as a tool to dodge Toronto traffic is huge for me - worth every penny.
It sucks for those who would want to use it regularly - i.e. commuters - but that's the entire point of the tolls.
It sucks for those who would want to use it regularly - i.e. commuters - but that's the entire point of the tolls.
micheal_can
Senior Member
This highway would work better to remove trucks off of the 401. Maybe all 400 series highways should be tolled then? I feel it is the toll that is pushing Ford to build the 413.
Sunnyside
Active Member
The fundamental issue is that we desperately need more than one crosstown 400-series highway, but we can’t have it. In a vacuum the 407 is not a problem; in light of the reality that we have been asking the 401 to do 4 different jobs at once, and that we actually can’t build another proper cross-region expressway, the 407 is problematic.
Despite that, the 407 won’t become untolled, and the 413 only relieves the second-most important travel pattern. We are kicking the can with either. Now, there are two (unsavoury) solutions, but we are going to need one of them in 20 years. I would rather we actually think about them now:
1. Extend the 413 to connect with the 404. This is infeasible at the small scale and will certainly stimulate sprawl, but it’d be quicker than…
2. Building a new highway, perhaps at the latitude of the Morriston Bypass, that fully bypasses (almost) the entire Golden Horseshoe. This is infeasible at the large scale but need not stimulate sprawl.
We can debate about how urgent this need is, but my ideal outcome is to pursue a long term alternative. The 413 is a short-term bandaid with political motivations accelerating it. I want a proper 401 alternative planned from the beginning that doesn’t defer this fundamental issue.
Despite that, the 407 won’t become untolled, and the 413 only relieves the second-most important travel pattern. We are kicking the can with either. Now, there are two (unsavoury) solutions, but we are going to need one of them in 20 years. I would rather we actually think about them now:
1. Extend the 413 to connect with the 404. This is infeasible at the small scale and will certainly stimulate sprawl, but it’d be quicker than…
2. Building a new highway, perhaps at the latitude of the Morriston Bypass, that fully bypasses (almost) the entire Golden Horseshoe. This is infeasible at the large scale but need not stimulate sprawl.
We can debate about how urgent this need is, but my ideal outcome is to pursue a long term alternative. The 413 is a short-term bandaid with political motivations accelerating it. I want a proper 401 alternative planned from the beginning that doesn’t defer this fundamental issue.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Wait... I thought the 413 was going between the 400 and 404 and then places west.
The GTA does need bypasses to better serve all travelers, but when one is tolled it is useless as a bypass. For instance, all through trucks should use the 407 unless their delivery or pickup is within the area in the 407.
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
You're thinking of the Bradford Bypass, which is more north.
Did you mean 401?
lenaitch
Senior Member
Hwy 413 is proposed to run west/southwest from Hwy 400 to Hwy 401. The unnumbered Bradford Bypass will run east from Hwy 400, quite a bit north of 413, to Hwy 404.
One problem with considering a bypass that increasingly runs further and further north of the city/GA is it ignores all the traffic that originates or terminates in the area. It would capture E-W through traffic (if it chose to use it) and through traffic entering from the east or west and bound for the north. I have no idea what the related numbers are.
micheal_can
Senior Member
Ok,
I now have my bearings on the 413.
Many cities have ring roads. The 407 is a ring road. The problem is, that due to the tolls it does not act as a ring road. If it did, it would alleviate the traffic on the 401, essentially fixing the issue with what you speak of. For that, one other thing is the cancelled freeways of the 1960s. The Parking Lot is ridiculous almost all the time.
All of this speaks to the poor planning of transportation in the area and even beyond. Everything from rail freight terminals, more passenger train routes, RER and rail transit expansions are all part of the planning. We are building more and more highways in hopes it is enough. Selling off the 407 is one of the worst things done. That is why my fantasy is always going to be removing those tolls.
2323
New Member
Removing the tolls will only make 2 parking lots instead of one. It's no better than saying "expand the 401"
lenaitch
Senior Member
One problem with the 'ring road' concept is Toronto is stuck with a semi-circle. Without some fantasy of a highway buried under the lake or something, you either go north or you go through. Carving another highway through the city, like the old proposed Scarborough Expressway, would be a non-starter.
Having a toll-free 407 is easy. According to an evaluation I saw, all we need is a spare $30Mn.
Edit: I meant to say $30 Billion.
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micheal_can
Senior Member
But then there would be evidence that the 413 is actually needed. Right now, with the free flowing 407, there is a lack of evidence that there is a need for the 413.
Take all of the canceled freeways and build them underground. Yes, it would be very expensive. What could be done is the freeways that are south of the 401 and east of the 427 could all be tolled. The could call it a congestion charge and be like other large cities. Tolling a bypass is silly. Tolling they main routes into the city is not so silly. It might even push more people on to transit, which my reduce traffic.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Bury freeways and passenger trains to everywhere. You are one generous taxpayer.
micheal_can
Senior Member
This is a fantasy thread.... I know 99% of what I suggested on this thread is not going to happen. It does not mean it would not be a good idea. Just means it is not financially feasible.
2323
New Member
The fact that the 407 needs to be tolled at such a high rate to be gridlock free is a sign of the latent demand to begin with.