[Rainforest]

The ride quality will not improve with a bus-lane, ...

Bus going at a steady speed (assuming the bus-only line is respected by cars) is more comfortable than the same bus in stop-and-go mixed traffic. Bus-only lanes on Allen north of Sheppard are pleasant to ride on #105 or 196, and even HOV lanes on Yonge north of Finch are somewhat better than mixed traffic.

... and you are not addressing the capacity issue. Bus lanes do not have the capacity of LRT.

It is true that the capacity limit for an on-street, single file bus lane is low. I wouldn't consider bus-lanes a solution for busiest routes like Finch East.

However, demand on Sheppard, east of the last subway stop (say Kennedy or Warden), would be much lower than demand near Yonge, and capacity is not an issue even for a mixed-traffic bus route.

How do you lknow it's not helping anyone? It's definitely going to improve the journeys for the current riders of the 85 Sheppard bus.

I agree that people who take 85 Sheppard anyway, will see an improvement. However, for the 1+ billion price tag, we could build an improvement for the majority of riders from Sheppard, as well as for many riders originating from Finch, Steeles, Ellesmere, Vic Park, Warden, and Kennedy.

 

[Justin10000]

Bus going at a steady speed (assuming the bus-only line is respected by cars) is more comfortable than the same bus in stop-and-go mixed traffic. Bus-only lanes on Allen north of Sheppard are pleasant to ride on #105 or 196, and even HOV lanes on Yonge north of Finch are somewhat better than mixed traffic.

Until the pavement starts to wear, and potholes appear. The improved ride quality will not last long. Not to mentions buses travelling over the curbside drains. Still a fairly bumpy ride.

It is true that the capacity limit for an on-street, single file bus lane is low. I wouldn't consider bus-lanes a solution for busiest routes like Finch East.
However, demand on Sheppard, east of the last subway stop (say Kennedy or Warden), would be much lower than demand near Yonge, and capacity is not an issue even for a mixed-traffic bus route.

The last subway stop on Sheppard is Don Mills. Why you are even including Warden,and Kennedy stations, I have no idea. The demand east of Don Mills Station on Sheppard is projected to peak at 3,000pph. Higher than what bus lanes(without passing lanes) can achieve.

I agree that people who take 85 Sheppard anyway, will see an improvement. However, for the 1+ billion price tag, we could build an improvement for the majority of riders from Sheppard, as well as for many riders originating from Finch, Steeles, Ellesmere, Vic Park, Warden, and Kennedy.

$1 Billion will not build bus lanes on all those arterials. Not by a long shot.

 

[Rainforest]

Until the pavement starts to wear, and potholes appear. The improved ride quality will not last long. Not to mentions buses travelling over the curbside drains. Still a fairly bumpy ride.

OK - bus lanes are not as good as rail; yet somewhat better than mixed traffic bus.

I objected to your statement that bus lanes will not improve the ride quality at all. However, I do not propose bus lanes as the main strategy of developing transit in this city.

The last subway stop on Sheppard is Don Mills. Why you are even including Warden,and Kennedy stations, I have no idea. The demand east of Don Mills Station on Sheppard is projected to peak at 3,000pph. Higher than what bus lanes(without passing lanes) can achieve.

$1 Billion will not build bus lanes on all those arterials. Not by a long shot.

I compared the effect of SELRT ($1.1 billion) that helps riders around Sheppard only, to the effect of using the same funding to extend Sheppard subway further east. For $1.1 billion, it would probably reach Warden. Extension to Warden would help many Sheppard riders even if they live further east (because they get to subway sooner). In addition, Vic Park and Warden buses would have direct connections to Sheppard subway, while Finch, Steeles, Ellesmere, and Kennedy bus routes could be reorganized so that branches run to the subway terminus.

I am not suggesting bus lanes on all of the above mentioned streets. Indeed, the cost of such lanes could be high, and not worth the benefit. In the subway-to-Warden scenario, bus lanes could be added further east on Sheppard to improve the speed; but that is optional.

 

[doady]

The ride quality will not improve with a bus-lane, and you are not addressing the capacity issue.

Wrong, bus lanes that improve speed and reliability will also increase capacity. Higher speed = higher capacity.

 

[Justin10000]

Wrong, bus lanes that improve speed and reliability will also increase capacity. Higher speed = higher capacity.

Bus lanes will address demand up to around 2,000pph. Demand on Sheppard east of Don Mills is around 3,000. Your assumption is overly simple.

 

[Justin10000]

OK - bus lanes are not as good as rail; yet somewhat better than mixed traffic bus.
I objected to your statement that bus lanes will not improve the ride quality at all. However, I do not propose bus lanes as the main strategy of developing transit in this city.

Objection noted. I do not think bus lanes will improve the ride quality at all. A road is a road. A local bus travelling on a newly paved road wil be better than a bus on a road with potholes, and cracks. If the bus lane was mae of concrete, I would agree the ride quality would be better, but it is highly unlikely that would be the case.

I compared the effect of SELRT ($1.1 billion) that helps riders around Sheppard only, to the effect of using the same funding to extend Sheppard subway further east. For $1.1 billion, it would probably reach Warden. Extension to Warden would help many Sheppard riders even if they live further east (because they get to subway sooner). In addition, Vic Park and Warden buses would have direct connections to Sheppard subway, while Finch, Steeles, Ellesmere, and Kennedy bus routes could be reorganized so that branches run to the subway terminus.
I am not suggesting bus lanes on all of the above mentioned streets. Indeed, the cost of such lanes could be high, and not worth the benefit. In the subway-to-Warden scenario, bus lanes could be added further east on Sheppard to improve the speed; but that is optional.

Except, that 1.1 Billioni is only going to help riders lucky enough to live near the 2 stations(Vic Park, Warden) who can walk in. I just do not understand why people are so obsessed with speed, and using only subways to achieve the highest speed possible to the station, and have no answer beyond "they can transfer to buses to complete their journey when they reach the station." I heard that the 190 express bus route had stops ADDED by request from the riders. Pretty solid evidence, people want stops nearby. How do you propose to address this issues with a subway with widely spaced stops? A subway to Warden is not going to help anyone, except force a transfer at Warden to buses. Nothing's changed except the terminus is now Warden, instead of Don Mills. I am really trying to wrap my head around this thinking that only subways can deliver quality transit, and buses providing low to intermediate capacity transit. It was proven, buses cannot provide intermediate capacity transport with significant infrastructure, and operating costs. Light Rail can provide intermediate capacity needs without significant infrastructure. Why do you, and others discount the positive role surface rail can provide?
It's been repeated over, and over agaiin, but speed is not the main determinant in attracting riders. t's a part of the equation, but you, and others seem to be only focusing on speed.
The SELRT is going to be a major success, whetever people like it or not. Is it really worth spending energy trying to stop something that will be built?

 

[Rainforest]

Objection noted. I do not think bus lanes will improve the ride quality at all. A road is a road. A local bus travelling on a newly paved road wil be better than a bus on a road with potholes, and cracks. If the bus lane was mae of concrete, I would agree the ride quality would be better, but it is highly unlikely that would be the case.

Any pavement deteriorates with time. But for the same road condition, bus-only lane is somewhat more comfortable than mixed-traffic bus.

Except, that 1.1 Billioni is only going to help riders lucky enough to live near the 2 stations(Vic Park, Warden) who can walk in. I just do not understand why people are so obsessed with speed, and using only subways to achieve the highest speed possible to the station, and have no answer beyond "they can transfer to buses to complete their journey when they reach the station."

In my view, speed is extremely important for transit. Time that I spent on slow transit is time that I could have spent doing something more useful. I do not understand how can people deny that.

Having to commute more than 1 hour each way (2 hours per day) really cuts into your schedule if you have a family and a lot of stuff to do; and makes transit unattractive even for people who would rather not drive.

I heard that the 190 express bus route had stops ADDED by request from the riders. Pretty solid evidence, people want stops nearby.

Obviously, people who live near that stop benefit from the stop being added. People who travel by, would likely prefer express ride, but were not asked.

How do you propose to address this issues with a subway with widely spaced stops?

Either build stations no more than 1 km apart, or use a local bus.

A subway to Warden is not going to help anyone, except force a transfer at Warden to buses. Nothing's changed except the terminus is now Warden, instead of Don Mills.

The transfer exists already, no new transfers would be forced. The speed would improve: Warden to Don Mills by bus is 12 - 15 min, by subway it would be 5 - 7 min; and that would help much more people than SELRT.

I am really trying to wrap my head around this thinking that only subways can deliver quality transit, and buses providing low to intermediate capacity transit.

How else can you travel a large distance within 416 in a reasonable time? Either subway, or fully grade-separate LRT, or GO trains; but the latter do not travel everywhere, and in many corridors, no suitable tracks exist.

It was proven, buses cannot provide intermediate capacity transport with significant infrastructure, and operating costs. Light Rail can provide intermediate capacity needs without significant infrastructure. Why do you, and others discount the positive role surface rail can provide?

There exists a number of routes in 416 where LRT is a right solution, Finch West being one of them. For Sheppard East, LRT is not the optimal solution.

It's been repeated over, and over agaiin, but speed is not the main determinant in attracting riders. t's a part of the equation, but you, and others seem to be only focusing on speed.

The best investment in transit is the one that provides greatest benefit to greatest number of riders. The northern Scarborough is remote and somewhat isolated geographically from the rest of Toronto. The extension of Sheppard subway would help many people living there to travel to other places in the city. In contrast, SELRT will help smaller number of people (living near Sheppard).

SELRT will be the best solution only if it is both origin and destination for the majority of its riders. I don't think this is the case. Jobs do not concentrate around Sheppard, they are either in downtown or scattered all over the city. Even if there is significant job creation along SELRT, not everybody can live close to work; think for example about families with two bread-winners whose jobs are far apart.

The SELRT is going to be a major success, whetever people like it or not.

"Major" is a relative term. However, I agree that it will be a "success", since it will improve transit experience for its riders, will sport a respectable ridership level (at least in the western portion), and is not at risk of being over capacity.

Is it really worth spending energy trying to stop something that will be built?

On that point, I have to agree with you. The risk of canceling SELRT and getting nothing in exchange overweights the fact that SELRT is not the optimal investment for this corridor.

At this point, better SELRT than nothing.

 

[lead82]

The reason speed is important is because The lengjt of ones commutes are very long here in Toronto for distance covered. lrt will certainly improve teservixe quality on Sheppard but at the end of the day if speed doesn't go up then that money doesn't seem to be a wide investment. Yes it adds capacity and a smoother ride but it won't attract many additional riders and it certainly won't change commuting choices in that part if the city. Is that not part if the reason we are building a transit network? The reason that the sheppard subway is successful today is because it significantly reduced the commute time from 30mins in peak to 10. The reason many prefer the subway extension is because the closer the subway is to you the shorter your commute to the station and the shorter your overall commute.

 

[Dan416]

Trying to justify the SELRT kills any credibility you two have.

 

[Electrify]

You could improve the ride quality and speed with bus lanes until you have the money to finish the subway. The SELRT ain't helping anyone. It's a big waste of money and the most pitiful excuse for a transit project one could possibly imagine.

My very first post here was recommending the current proposed stops with a BRT, or spaced out stops with a LRT. However, in reality where the choices are Sheppard "LRT" with frequent stops or nothing, I'll take the former.

 

[Rainforest]

Trying to justify the SELRT kills any credibility you two have.

OK ... I expressed my opinion.

Both you and Justin10000 are free to disagree with me.

 

[Electrify]

The reason speed is important is because The lengjt of ones commutes are very long here in Toronto for distance covered. lrt will certainly improve teservixe quality on Sheppard but at the end of the day if speed doesn't go up then that money doesn't seem to be a wide investment. Yes it adds capacity and a smoother ride but it won't attract many additional riders and it certainly won't change commuting choices in that part if the city. Is that not part if the reason we are building a transit network? The reason that the sheppard subway is successful today is because it significantly reduced the commute time from 30mins in peak to 10. The reason many prefer the subway extension is because the closer the subway is to you the shorter your commute to the station and the shorter your overall commute.

Yes, but the goal of public transit is to build dense strips and social engineering. Only a fool would believe that it is for "transportation". After all, human settlement has always been focused around dense strips rather than cores - that's why Danforth and Woodbine is so much more appealing than Bloor and Yonge. And if someone doesn't want watch 3 full trains pass by before one comes along that they can barely cram themselves on to... well, too bad, because driving is a worse sin than murder!!!

 

[gweed123]

Bus lanes will address demand up to around 2,000pph. Demand on Sheppard east of Don Mills is around 3,000. Your assumption is overly simple.

I call bullshit. The bus lanes in Ottawa's downtown carry 10,500 pphpd (http://www.octranspo1.com/about-octranspo/reports). That's through a downtown area, with close station stops, etc. The bus-only lanes on the suburban corridors (Woodroffe comes to mind) have an even higher capacity than that. Granted, the downtown can't handle much more than what it currently is, but not being able to handle 2,000pph?

His assumption may be overly simple, but your facts are fundamentally flawed.

 

[gweed123]

The SELRT is going to be a major success, whetever people like it or not. Is it really worth spending energy trying to stop something that will be built?

I agree with CC on this one, you just lost whatever credibility you had left...

 

[The Mad Navigator]

I agree with CC on this one, you just lost whatever credibility you had left...

Well considering you and CC have very little credibility to begin with, I'll throw this in your face, since you called it on Justin10000: