nfitz
Superstar
Because he advocates not trying to get fully-funded rapid transit projects cancelled? Really?
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- Thread starter Ansem
- Start date
Because he advoctes for a "rapid transit" project that had no business being funded in the first place, because the planning rationale for it is dubious at best.
And I called bullshit on his assertion that a BRT lane could only handle 2000 pph. Seriously, come on.
Really? So you also believe a BRT lane can only handle 2000 pph?
Rainforest
Senior Member
Maybe we could skip silly taunts, and just operate facts.
SELRT is not the best bang for the buck in this corridor. But there is no reasonable prospect of turning it into subway in the present political and fiscal environment. At most, we could cancel it, leave the corridor available for subway extension, but wait an unknown number of years before it actually gets subway.
SELRT won't be useless; if we can't help larger number people, let's help some at least.
An on-street bus lane is one thing, Ottawa's BRT with its passing lanes and elaborate stations is quite another matter. Their capacities differ. Although, if the Sheppard subway was extended to Warden or Kennedy, 2,000 pphpd would suffice east of that point; you could build bus lanes, or just keep running mixed-traffic bus.
There is no such thing as perfect transit network, but you can make an imperfect network more useful. If SELRT is the best we can do on Sheppard, but Danforth subway is getting extended - then let's take the subway one stop north of STC and connect to SELRT and make it somewhat more sensible.
SELRT is not the best bang for the buck in this corridor. But there is no reasonable prospect of turning it into subway in the present political and fiscal environment. At most, we could cancel it, leave the corridor available for subway extension, but wait an unknown number of years before it actually gets subway.
SELRT won't be useless; if we can't help larger number people, let's help some at least.
An on-street bus lane is one thing, Ottawa's BRT with its passing lanes and elaborate stations is quite another matter. Their capacities differ. Although, if the Sheppard subway was extended to Warden or Kennedy, 2,000 pphpd would suffice east of that point; you could build bus lanes, or just keep running mixed-traffic bus.
There is no such thing as perfect transit network, but you can make an imperfect network more useful. If SELRT is the best we can do on Sheppard, but Danforth subway is getting extended - then let's take the subway one stop north of STC and connect to SELRT and make it somewhat more sensible.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I'd much rather have Sheppard cancelled in wait for further subway construction 5 years from now than being stuck with the SELRT for at least 20 years. No wasting $1+ billion, and while the riders will not have an improvement in service, they don't explicitly require a service increase in the same way that the DRL is needed. The Sheppard subway extension is necessary for the development of Northern Toronto, but in light of more crowded corridors I'd definitely let it get the cut, especially when you're replacing a bandaid solution for a sound investment.
Rainforest
Senior Member
^ Well, if that 1+ billion was unambiguously directed towards DRL, and DRL design was about to begin - then yes.
But the decision-making process is so twisted, you can't be sure how the funds are redirected.
There are two fundamental problems here: 1) the City council has no fiscal powers to fund transit expansion, whereas the provincial and federal government have other priorities; 2) building a transit network takes much longer than the typical 4-year MP / MPP / mayoral term. Both problems will persist, no matter who becomes the mayor this fall.
But the decision-making process is so twisted, you can't be sure how the funds are redirected.
There are two fundamental problems here: 1) the City council has no fiscal powers to fund transit expansion, whereas the provincial and federal government have other priorities; 2) building a transit network takes much longer than the typical 4-year MP / MPP / mayoral term. Both problems will persist, no matter who becomes the mayor this fall.
urbandreamer
recession proof
Ford has the best plan...which imho is to build subway to airport then don't build anything else. Saves tons of money on unions, contractors and mobsters.
nfitz
Superstar
Perhaps you think that it wasn't worthy of LRT ... but there are even some people out here who look at the relatively low ridership, and actually have the gall to suggest that it should be subway!
A little underdone ... but I'd think Ottawa-style BRT wouldn't actually fit in the alignments being studied, as the roadways are so wide, and the stations are very wide.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
The Sheppard streetcar ROW will do nothing more than throw a billion dollars down the drain, replacing some of the corridor's buses (but not all of them) with light rail like a housewife's mid-life redecorating crisis. Oh, wait, it'll grade-separate the GO crossing, which is good for GO and for cars.
After a few stops were added, the 190 now has 7 stops...the Sheppard subway extension was planned to have 7 stations. The 190 was originally intended as a more or less express link from Don Mills to STC (even though the purpose of the subway is to serve everything along Sheppard and not just connect some dense areas) to replace the 85 branch that went to STC. Stations were added to the 190 because so many people were switching from the regular Sheppard 85 - and these people wanted a route with LESS stops because it saves them time.
Total travel time is quite obviously the most important factor in transit ridership, and "speed" is just one part of this (usually a big part, though).
Justin10000
Banned
Not likely. The bus lanes in the downtown core are so packed, the buses crawl through the core, nullifying any sort of speed advantage gained on the segregated sections. That is curb bus lanes at 10,000pph. The same mode you advocate.
Who cares. You guys have been shown to provide misleading assumptions in the past, and you love to insult others, but get offended if anyone calls you out.
The fact you believe a simple bus lane can carry more than 2,000pph shows just how much you know, and how biased you are.
kEiThZ
Superstar
At this point, I am almost inclined to say let them build it and let's see what happens. After they spend a billion bucks and find out that the LRT doesn't divert any significant amount of ridership from any parallel corridor, that'll be the most instructive lesson about LRT deployment in Toronto, that the planners can learn. Sometimes it takes a billion dollar plus mistake to learn.
And as some who grew up within a 7 minute walk of Sheppard, I am willing to bet that's exactly what'll happen. The line will be a "success" (nobody really expects them to admit failure after all) at keeping the current ridership on Sheppard (excluding the 190). But it won't be successful at easing demand on Finch or Ellesmere.
As for suggesting speed is not important. Come to Malvern and say that. You might get lynched! The number one concern that you routinely hear from most residents is that transit is too slow. They hate the fact that it takes an hour and a half to get downtown or 45 mins - 1hr to get to mid-town from most of Malvern. The LRT won't make a lick of difference to most of the community, except those who have the good fortune to live within walking distance of sheppard. And through Malvern that's a bunch of families in single family homes.
And as some who grew up within a 7 minute walk of Sheppard, I am willing to bet that's exactly what'll happen. The line will be a "success" (nobody really expects them to admit failure after all) at keeping the current ridership on Sheppard (excluding the 190). But it won't be successful at easing demand on Finch or Ellesmere.
As for suggesting speed is not important. Come to Malvern and say that. You might get lynched! The number one concern that you routinely hear from most residents is that transit is too slow. They hate the fact that it takes an hour and a half to get downtown or 45 mins - 1hr to get to mid-town from most of Malvern. The LRT won't make a lick of difference to most of the community, except those who have the good fortune to live within walking distance of sheppard. And through Malvern that's a bunch of families in single family homes.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Last I checked, Sheppard East looks nothing like downtown Ottawa. I am willing to bet real money that curbside bus lanes combined with articulated buses could easily handle 2000 pphpd. It's one bus every 3 minutes or more. Even on that simpleton's graphic the TTC uses, 2000 pphpd falls within the Bus/BRT category. The TTC even suggests that 2000 pphpd is possible in mixed traffic. So I don't know how you can dispute how much it can handle.
http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/sheppard_east_lrt/pdf/2008_04-15-17_boards.pdf
See pg. 16. The TTC happens to think that BRT can handle up to 5000 pphpd.
So who's lying? You or the TTC?
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I still don't like that idea. LRT can work well, as seen in European cities. But LRT just isn't suited for Sheppard. Connecting two major density nodes and a rather dense corridor in between, with basically a sudden transition to suburbia right after that corridor begs for subway, and regular bus service after that. LRT would be great on a couple routes in Toronto. But if you prove Sheppard as the failure of LRT, that makes people think that LRT is a stupid idea for something sensible like Finch West.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Let them shoot themselves in the foot. LRT was great for Finch West. They chose to start on Sheppard, just so they could kill off the subway expansion. So now they'll have to live with it. The subway would have attracted more riders. The LRT will scarcely get more than what the non-express Sheppard buses get now (the 190 is a huge chunk of riders and its out of the count). After that happens, the knives will come out for Transit City and LRT. Not something I wish for, but a prediction of what's going to happen if Sheppard doesn't deliver on the lofty expectations its proponents are putting up.
Even that demand forecast is hilarious. Does anybody really believe there's a 3000pphpd demand east of Agincourt? Even with all the new condos and townhouses at Markham and Sheppard, I'll bet Sheppard east of Agincourt won't see 3000pphpd. Ever.
If anybody doubts me, please feel free to stand at the corner of Sheppard and Markham and count the riders. I'd be more than willing to pay for the coffee and donuts.
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Fresh Start
Banned
+1
I'd rather take a simplistic, common-sense plan over all this tramsit shitty pph demand forecast mumbo-jumbo any day of the week.