[kEiThZ]

Lets say the city puts off buying these streetcars two years so it can move up projects that qualify for stimulus knowing full well that in two years time after the stimulus program is over that there will still be some sort of program the federal government is using to fund projects. You would me moving $1.2 billion of LRT spending from the city, province, and federal government to 2011, and moving infrastructure spending in the amount of $1 billion from 2012 to 2009. How is that stimulus?

The city is only committing to buying the streetcars. It will only have to pay when Bombardier delivers. So you are not spending anything right now. Conversely if many of the infrastructure renewal projects that are on the books (and can be started and finished in the next 2 years) are moved up, they will put people to work and stimulate the economy.

And this does not have to mean that Toronto is 'putting off' buying these streetcars. It's Miller that has chosen to play politics with the feds and the streetcar project. He's the one threatening to scupper the deal and using the deadline (which Bombardier is flexible) to try and get the feds to ante up. The feds should pay, of course. But that should be a part of regular transit funding. You shouldn't be using stimulus money fund a streetcar deal that really won't hit its peak until half a decade from now.

I still don't see what the big deal is. The TTC can get a lot of planned projects of the books now with federal and provincial money that it might not otherwise get for these projects. Many of these upgrades will also save the TTC money down the road, again improving the bottom line. I'd be more than willing to see a 1% tax increase over the next decade to pay for the federal portion of the streetcar bill if it means that city manages to leverage 600 million (more than the federal portion of the streetcar purchase) from the feds and the province. The city could be dramatically improved for the 900 million that'll be spent in the next 2 years on infrastructure.

 

[nfitz]

I think the province will kick in the 300 million for stimulus as well. After all the streetcar money is not going towards stimulating the economy right now. And they'll certainly do it if that means that federal funds are going to be leveraged.

The province already funded the streetcars from their stimulus funds. Are they going to fund Toronto twice as much as anywhere else under this program?

 

[kEiThZ]

The province already funded the streetcars from their stimulus funds. Are they going to fund Toronto twice as much as anywhere else under this program?

We'll see. But I am willing to bet that they will.

 

[EnviroTO]

The city is only committing to buying the streetcars. It will only have to pay when Bombardier delivers. So you are not spending anything right now.

There are people working on the new subway cars now. Whether or not the city has had to pay Bombardier yet is irrelevant. The jobs occur at Bombardier in advance of the city paying.

The city didn't choose for the federal government to restrict its funding to only stimulus. Submitting the streetcar deal as the only item on the stimulus request was a protest that the normal funding for projects no longer existed. The city knows streetcars didn't qualify but negotiations were not giving them a non-stimulus funding option for the streetcar purchase. If there was no recession right now and no stimulus package the federal government would still be spending money on something.

There is no big deal. The city can move money around and still pay for everything. The city had hoped to get stimulus money in addition to regular money. It looks like normal funding is cancelled because the feds want people to think a whole lot of new money has been spent on stimulus to explain their record debt when in fact the money went to GST cuts, auto bailouts, and a seriously misread market.

 

[Whoaccio]

The problem is that before the recession and the stimulus program the federal government was spending money on projects. The streetcar replacement project with its requirement for federal financing was approved by city council before the stimulus program and its rules were made public. The city had hoped to get money from the normal funding channels that existed prior to the stimulus program. Since then it has been made clear that non-stimulus funding has dried up so the city placed the streetcar purchase on the stimulus request because there was no where else to put it. Stimulus is only truly a stimulus if there is new money on top of the baseline amount.

Since when has non-stimulus related funding 'dried up'? Only about a month ago the feds signed on for the Sheppard East LRT.

The city didn't choose for the federal government to restrict its funding to only stimulus. Submitting the streetcar deal as the only item on the stimulus request was a protest that the normal funding for projects no longer existed. The city knows streetcars didn't qualify but negotiations were not giving them a non-stimulus funding option for the streetcar purchase. If there was no recession right now and no stimulus package the federal government would still be spending money on something.

Imagine that, the City doesn't tell the federal government what to do.

I don't even like the idea of stimulus, but having the city forgo it's share as a 'protest' is so dumb. Its not the City's job to protest to a Parliament which has far more legitimacy than it ever will, or at least not screw itself out of a few hundred million in order to prove a point.

If there was no recession and the LRVs still weren't being funded, then that just proves how ridiculous this is. The point of the stimulus wasn't to squeak long term mega projects through.

 

[EnviroTO]

The city hasn't forgone its share. It will still get stimulus spending for other things.

Replacing existing ancient streetcars which are at the end of their lifespan is not a "long term mega project". It is maintenance of the existing system. These streetcars are not for Transit City... the funds for Transit City came through and the funding for maintaining the existing system did not.

 

[Whoaccio]

Replacing existing ancient streetcars which are at the end of their lifespan is not a "long term mega project". It is maintenance of the existing system. These streetcars are not for Transit City... the funds for Transit City came through and the funding for maintaining the existing system did not.

If the first prototype tram isn't scheduled to arrive until after the stimulus spending deadline and the bulk of production is to occur between 2012-2018 (i.e. way past the stimulus deadline), then yes it is a long term project according to the stimulus program. That it is costing over a billion dollars generally qualifies it as a megaproject. Ergo, long term megaproject.

Look, I don't like the stimulus program in general. For whatever reasons though I am not dictator (yet). What I do now is that Parliament's rules were pretty bloody clear on stimulus requirements: short term and localized. The NDP has been crying every day in the Commons that the nasty conservatives aren't, if you can believe it, 'getting the money out of the door fast enough.' We get news story after news story about how 'only spending 20%' of appropriated stimulus funds is an indication of systemic failure on behalf of the Conservatives. So even if I don't agree with it, lets not pretend like these stimulus criteria were random and arbitrary. For City Hall to take a project that they know doesn't meet the criteria and use it as proof of some kind of anti-Toronto conspiracy is ridiculous. It wasn't a protest at all, it was a hollow attempt to force the Feds to fund a totally unrelated project by way of a program explicitly created not to fund these long term mega projects (see above). It's really dumb behavior and the City has no one to blame but themselves.

 

[EnviroTO]

It's really dumb behavior and the City has no one to blame but themselves.

Blame for what? Blame the city for not getting money for streetcars that the federal government wasn't going to give anyways? What has really been lost? It is a zero damage move that could have got funding from the federal government. When the city council approved the TTC streetcar project funding based on a 1/3rd federal share and there was no stimulus funding program at that time. Months later after the TTC bid process had come to completion the rules for federal funding were then known and the city had no funding. They decided to send the message that funding streetcars was their highest priority, an important message considering at the time there were some MPs and MPPs talking about how the city has too many priorities. Sending that message may be what led to the city getting money the province had said at the time said wasn't coming. It had the potential of twisting the federal governments arm to find a way to fund the streetcar deal from a non-stimulus program.

They didn't get the funding for the streetcars from the federal government but they did manage to get money from the province that wasn't going to come and will still get stimulus funding for qualifying projects with the press covering the topic more heavily ensuring the stimulus money actually does arrive.

 

[Glen]

Blame for what?

How about for not understanding that building streetcars in Thunder Bay in a few years is not the same as making jobs in Toronto today.

 

[EnviroTO]

I'm pretty sure the city does understand that. With Union Station, Kipling Station, Victoria Park Station, West Don Lands neighbourhood, Don River Park, Sherbourne Park, Queens Quay Revitalization, Sheppard East LRT, and the Spadina Subway extension all starting construction this year or next and added to the huge hiring spree that occurred this year in city hall there have been a lot of people put to work. I'm not sure there has ever been as many projects underway.

 

[officedweller]

Blame for what? Blame the city for not getting money for streetcars that the federal government wasn't going to give anyways? What has really been lost? It is a zero damage move that could have got funding from the federal government.

Blamed for not getting money for other infrastraucure projects that would have freed up other City funds for allocation to the streetcars - if you're framing everything in terms of streetcars - or other City projects. It would be OK if the City had proposed alternate projects - but it didn't.

Or put more simply - blamed for not taking the opportunity to get funding [for something - anything] when it is offered.

You should take it when you can.

It's like people out here in Vancouver complaining about Federal money going into the Olympics or the Canada Line and how it should go towards housing. If we didn't have the Olympics - do you actually think that we'd be getting the same amount of dollars for housing? Yeah, right!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Blame for what? Blame the city for not getting money for streetcars that the federal government wasn't going to give anyways? What has really been lost? It is a zero damage move that could have got funding from the federal government.

You've totally missed the point. A LOT got lost.
Not only did the city fail to get the streetcar $, part of Miller's gamble was that Toronto applied for NO other infrastructure funds.

York Region, for example, got about $90 mil from the feds so I'll leave it to you to consider what Toronto might have received.

Toronto could have gotten money for repaving roads (Steeles comes to mind), fixing up the aging sewers and who knows what else. So when you're bitching about potholes on your street or how some park needs new benches, remember that Miller EXPLICITLY chose not to request money for those things.

Frankly, I think that's the real crime here for Torontonians. I 100% think the feds should fund the streetcars and I ALMOST respect Miller's cojones for trying to make them blink, but the reality is that they in no way qualified for the infrastructure stimulus funds and he knew that going in.

Torontonians will suffer as a result unless John Baird decides he wants to be nice and give them another kick at the can, but I wouldn't count on it.

Sorry for being vociferous but it's awful important to understand what was lost here: hundreds of millions in much-needed infrastructure.

 

[nfitz]

Baird has already said he want's to see a new submission from the city. There are no indications that anything has been lost. Though given that the matching provincial funds went to the streetcars, and the City would have to find $600-million to get the federal $300-million ... is it worthwhile?

 

[kEiThZ]

Baird has already said he want's to see a new submission from the city. There are no indications that anything has been lost. Though given that the matching provincial funds went to the streetcars, and the City would have to find $600-million to get the federal $300-million ... is it worthwhile?

Yes its worthwhile. And the city would only have to find 300 million and they 300 million from the feds and hopefully 300 million from the province. Even if the province does not put it in its share, that's still 300 million that the city didn't have before. And getting some of those upgrades done will save money and improve the city's fiscal position in the long run.

 

[nfitz]

If province gives over $300-million ... then great! But don't they risk complaints from every other city that they've already funded (if not overfunded) Toronto from that program (though certainly there are counter-points)?

I suppose it depends what these upgrades are. There's so much stuff already underway; is there even the capacity to spend $300-million? Perhaps they can put a lot of it too some big housing project; the next phase of Regent Park perhaps - but I don't think Phase 1 was completed in 2 years.

It's a great program for small projects; repaving, small buildings, etc. It's a lousy program for big ticket projects.