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So fair wage is where solid waste management employees holding their high school diploma gets to earn the same or even more than a well educated, university graduate by a few folds? This sounds more like a communist way of life than democratic....and here I thought I was living in Canada.
 
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So fair wage is where solid waste management employees holding their high school diploma gets to earn the same or even more than a well educated, university graduate by a few folds? This sounds more like a communist way of life than democratic....and here I thought I was living in Canada.

This "but they didn't even go to university!" argument is ridiculous. Getting a post-secondary education does not guarantee you a better wage than someone who didn't - it never has and never will. And that's applicable to both the public and private sectors. Some people, for many many reasons, never had the chance to pursue a post-secondary education and I for one don't think they should be condemned to a life of poverty, which is exactly what would happen if we eliminated well-paying jobs for high school graduates. What you're suggesting isn't democracy but pure elitism.

Note that I am not speaking particularly about the city workers here, but responding to this argument that gets repeated all to often.

That's not to say there aren't any problems with the idea of the living wage, notably that it isn't the same for everybody. The living wage for a single parent with two kids with health problems will be different from that of an unattached healthy bachelor, for example.
 
The feeling I get here from you folks is that they do not deserve benefits, fair wage, unionized environment...

I get the distinct impression that you haven't bothered to read any of the preceding 53 pages on this topic.
 
This "but they didn't even go to university!" argument is ridiculous. Getting a post-secondary education does not guarantee you a better wage than someone who didn't - it never has and never will. And that's applicable to both the public and private sectors. Some people, for many many reasons, never had the chance to pursue a post-secondary education and I for one don't think they should be condemned to a life of poverty, which is exactly what would happen if we eliminated well-paying jobs for high school graduates. What you're suggesting isn't democracy but pure elitism.

Note that I am not speaking particularly about the city workers here, but responding to this argument that gets repeated all to often.

That's not to say there aren't any problems with the idea of the living wage, notably that it isn't the same for everybody. The living wage for a single parent with two kids with health problems will be different from that of an unattached healthy bachelor, for example.

Fallacy. We're not talking about paying every high school grad $50k per year--we're talking about taxing people earning $20k per year to pay a small fraction of people who earn over $50k, who are overpaid and underproductive.

What we need to competitive bidding on garbage collection.

From the Globe:

Set the garbage hostages free

Private collection is often, but not always, best; the monopoly factor is what needs to be trashed
BEN DACHIS

From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Last updated on Thursday, Jul. 23, 2009 09:01AM EDT

Policy analyst, C.D. Howe Institute

For most of us, garbage is best out of sight and out of mind. But seeing and smelling garbage piled up in homes and on the streets because of municipal strikes in Windsor, Ont., and Toronto reminds us that trash removal is an essential part of modern city life - which raises the question why modern city life should be paralyzed by strikes.

This summer has seen a mini-revival of labour unrest, with continuing strikes by Windsor and Toronto municipal staff, of whom garbage workers are only one part, by paramedics in British Columbia, as well as a narrowly averted walkout by Ontario liquor-store workers. This follows on the heels of lengthy strikes by Ottawa public transit and York University. This rash of strikes is notable partly because work stoppages have become so rare. The late 1970s saw more than 1,000 strikes a year across Canada; this decade the average is less than 200 a year, with even fewer major strikes. But they are also notable because they affect key services that - at least in the short run - are hard to replace. Unionized city workers off the job mean closed pools, cancelled programs and garbage stinking in the summer heat.

Municipal strikes halted garbage collection in Regina in 2005, Vancouver in 2007 and Toronto twice in the last decade. Almost always in summer (who wants to picket in winter?), the average municipal strike is more than two months long. It will be no surprise if residents of Toronto suffer as long as their fellow Canadians in Vancouver did for almost three months; in Windsor, the strike has now lasted even longer than that.

What makes these service stoppages all the more irritating is that they are unnecessary. Elected politicians can - if they have the nerve - remove the conditions that foster them. Only where cities operate a unionized public monopoly on garbage pickup are city residents potential hostages to a strike vote. And there is no good reason for these monopolies to exist.

Canadians do not like monopolies in the private sector - indeed, governments have myriad laws and regulations to prevent them from forming, and to break them up if they do. Applying the same thinking to municipal garbage pickup, with a few simple changes to how our cities work, would help prevent lengthy garbage strikes and lower costs for taxpayers.

Until a few months ago, Calgary was the only major Canadian city without municipal curbside recycling pickup. Small, private companies filled that gap by picking up recycling from their customers' homes. Now, almost all of these small enterprises are facing bankruptcy, after the City of Calgary's heavy-footed entry into the recycling business.

When the City of Calgary decided to start its own recycling program for single-family homes this spring, it gave outside contractors a chance to bid. But both large and small recycling companies claimed that the request for proposals had problems, ranging from excessive insurance and bonding requirements to terms that gave the city the right to arbitrarily cancel the contract. In the end, only one company put in a bid, and Calgary eventually awarded itself the contract to serve the entire city.

Calgary will now have both single-family residential garbage and recycling pickup done exclusively by public employees, going farther down the road to public monopoly than even Toronto, which still contracts out segments of its residential garbage and recycling pickup; soon before Toronto was amalgamated, Etobicoke contracted out residential collection in 1995, after a strike, and is still benefiting now.

PUBLIC AND PRIVATE CAN COMPETE

Researchers from the Local Government Institute at the University of Victoria found that most Canadian cities, over the whole range of sizes, contract out municipal recycling pickup to private companies: around 80 per cent. As for solid waste, between 67 and 80 per cent of medium-sized cities (under 50,000 people) contract out pickup.

Larger cities are slightly less likely to use private garbage collection: only about 50 to 60 per cent have contracted out their residential solid waste pickup. Cities such as Vancouver, Calgary, and Toronto have public employees hauling most residential garbage. On the other hand, multiresidential and commercial waste pickup - often paid for by fees for service, rather than taxes - is almost always private.

Half of Edmonton's garbage is picked up by contractors, Winnipeg contracted out garbage pickup in 2005 and Ottawa contracted out most pickup in 1999.

Overall, Canadian cities with privatized garbage service have a per-household cost that is about 20 per cent less than publicly operated services. When public crews work in the same city as contracted crews, the contractors cost less and serve many more households per worker.

The small recycling firms in Calgary are suing the city for taking their business away. The city's "fairness adviser," however, has declared that the contract was awarded properly. But whether the recyclers are compensated or not, the people of Calgary are likely to be the real losers as a result of a public monopoly that will likely lead to higher costs and possibly leave city services at the mercy of a union strike vote.
 
VITAL TENSION

The evidence from around the world shows that private companies and public unions have essentially the same costs when the two are competing head-to-head. But when the public sector does not have to compete with the private sector, the costs are higher.

The world leaders in contracting out garbage service are not, as one might expect, in the United States, where perhaps half of cities contract out collection, but in social-democratic Europe: upwards of 80 per cent of Danish garbage collection is contracted out and 60 per cent of Swedish garbage pickup is done privately.

Of course, privatizations sometimes go wrong. A key benefit of privatization is that the supervisor and the provider of the service are no longer one and the same. That tension, and the accountability that goes with it, are vital. But governments can become complacent about their contracting, returning as if by default to the same providers and over time allowing cost savings to erode.

Contracting out has the most potential in services where one contractor can easily be replaced by another if service quality flags or costs rise. Defining and enforcing the service levels and termination criteria laid out in the contract are important ways of making sure that each side lives up to its end of the bargain. And governments ought not to hand over the keys to the city to any one private contractor, any more than they should to any one union. Replacing a public monopoly with a private monopoly would do little good.

The market for garbage collection is potentially competitive, and cartels would probably be non-existent if contracts are structured properly. Last month, for example, Peel Region (a suburban area outside Toronto) put out a contract for garbage services. Fully 27 firms expressed an interest in the project and nine companies put in bids. The more companies that bid, the better the terms and the lower the costs are likely to be.

At the other end of the spectrum, as in Calgary, are governments that set the private sector up to fail. Successful contracts need regular bidding that is fair and transparent. Contracts that result in expensive monitoring and supervision of contractors make contracting no cheaper than public operation - or preclude it altogether.

And what happens to public employees when there is competition for garbage collection? The job losses from competitive tendering are usually very small, about 5 per cent, based on the experience in the United States. To put that into context, total employment at the City of Toronto grew by 5.4 per cent from 2003 to 2007. Most employees affected by privatization are hired by the contractor; the rest are generally transferred to other parts of the government.

Public employee unions win 70 to 90 per cent of the work that is put out to an open tender. Public employees are usually the best option; they just need to prove they are.

REVERSIBLE Much of the rhetoric and ideology behind contracting of government services makes a false distinction between public and private. Ending government monopolies does not mean wild-eyed privateers taking over city councils across the country.

The key to better service is not necessarily private ownership, but an environment that encourages municipal service providers to innovate: to improve quality and reduce cost. This means that governments need to have the option of seeking a private contractor if the public option does not work well for the city.

Retaining the ability to reverse a privatization can be important. The City of Port Moody, a suburban community outside Vancouver, did just this a few weeks ago. A city that does not have the ability to step in when a private contractor fails to deliver leaves itself potentially hostage. For example, the City of Ottawa has achieved significant cost reductions through competition, but still operates a portion of the garbage service itself to keep the market competitive. In fact, during the last decade American cities have been contracting work back in at a faster rate than they have contracted out. This is not a failure of competitive contracting: the ability to bring work back in-house is crucial to making sure that contractors know their jobs are always on the line.

Contracting out is often done by carving out segments of a city, with contractors bidding on different parts. This allows small, locally owned companies to bid for portions of a contract and does not limit the bidding to giant firms or the city itself. The City of Montreal contracts out garbage service by its boroughs; about half of the city is served by contractors.

Contracting can also mean allowing neighbouring cities to offer their services. With a patchwork of small cities in, say, Vancouver or Montreal, the city with the most efficient garbage system can be paid by its neighbours to take on their service, too.

Canadian cities should be instituting clear contracts for garbage service that do not impose tightly binding rules on how a service should be provided, but instead set out what service the city wants and let workers and their managers (either public or private) figure out the best way to do a job.

Otherwise, Canadian cities will fall into the trap that leads to higher costs and more and longer strikes. The path to garbage strikes in Toronto and Vancouver started with government monopolies - the road that Calgary is now on. Unquestioned government monopolies of garbage service would leave our big cities knee-deep in garbage as their neighbours and international competitors keep their streets clean and cities competitive.
 
Are you people better than the people who are employed in solid waste management? The feeling I get here from you folks is that they do not deserve benefits, fair wage, unionized environment...maybe you would prefer the caste system in India. Hmm is that more to your liking??

Quit avoiding generalities and address the challenges posed to your points. It is quite ridiculous to suggest that because some of us don't want to reward unproductive workers that we are somehow against workers getting benefits, fair wages, etc or that we support the Indian caste system (which if you really knew anything about, you would not be joking about or alluding to).

I have repeatedly said here, that if the trash collectors were any where as productive as their contracted counterparts, I'd have no problem with them getting the pay and benefits they currently do. Contrary to your ridiculous generalizations, I am sure most of the audience here believes the same. What we see instead are workers who are twice as productive, not getting sick days, getting paid a third less, etc. while the unionized municipal employees are the ones on strike seeking out of proportion (above inflation) pay hikes and defending a benefit which essentially amounts to a golden handshake that most people decry as a practice in the private sector.

Private sector union vs public sector union? I am not sure what you mean by that?? Any union working in either the private or public sector, if placed in a legal strike position has the option to go out and strike.

There's quite a difference between a union that works for a employer who has competitors and a public sector union that holds a labour monopoly (because the city refuses to contract out even if the cost savings are blatantly obvious) and a service monopoly (for example, jitneys aren't allowed in Toronto).

And David Miller is Chair of the C40 Cities group (not C20 wtf?) a group of municipal leaders across the globe which (due to the overall LACK of leadership by provincial, or federal or equivalent governments) have joined together in an effort to make a move on climate change. http://www.c40cities.org/

Oh come of it. You know what I meant. While I am not going to lambaste his participation in this particular group, the phrase, "Fiddled while Rome burned" comes to mind. And on this point, regardless of whether he believes that higher order of government are or are not showing leadership (and on this file, the province is most certainly moving along even if the federal government isn't), it's not his responsibility to participate in foreign policy debates. We have the federal government for that. What's next? Miller negotiating with North Korea for nuclear arms control? Or maybe he can get together with Rajapakse and arrange for the Tamils to have immunity from prosecution when they block a highway in Colombo.
 
I get the distinct impression that you haven't bothered to read any of the preceding 53 pages on this topic.

Exactly. Or he wouldn't defend paying cashiers 50k a year. That's probably even worse than what they pay the trash collectors.
 
Exactly. Or he wouldn't defend paying cashiers 50k a year. That's probably even worse than what they pay the trash collectors.


considering a typical cashier would probably get something near minimum wage, doesn't have to do manual labour, deal with the smell of rotting garbage, etc ..... yeah, City cashiers are overpaid.
 
it's the attitude: " I don't get that so let's take it away from them" that bothers me. I would prefer the attitude: "hey they have that benefit - what can we do to work towards a more equitable work force where everyone can have access to certain benefits" but NOOOOO the economy trumps it all doesn't it. The all pervasive economy (which supercedes even the physical biospehere) is bad - so let's pick on the lowest common denominator, let's take away from the labourers, from the garbage pickers. Let's remove their privileges, Yeah.

As suggested by a couple of others, you could help your presentation if you demonstrated that you had read and understood previous postings to this thread.

For example, the point you make above was almost exactly made last week. My response to you is the same I responded then:

http://www.urbantoronto.ca/showpost.php?p=297557&postcount=663
 
Put out the old grey bin last night, and an almost full green bin.

Still, strolling along my leafy avenue to the 504 this morning, I was surprised at how little extra "stuff" was out for collection. Householders handled this rather well, I think.
 
^I think that is the real story of this strike on the garbage side, how minor the impact of strike really was (apart from people who live near one of the temporary dump sites). Garbage started to pile up initially until people started to realize the strike would drag on and took responsibility for their own environments. The residential and commercial streets in most parts of the city remained remarkably clean. I think this is because people have been forced to deal with and separate their own waste. Collection has been outsourced for commercial and multi-residential and construction sources and all users are now required to pay for garbage specifically. With a specific user fee it starts to make sense for people to opt out of city provided garbage removal if it no longer makes sense for them. Make no mistake, regardless of the political posturing on outsourcing the market share of garbage removel provided by the city is shrinking every year.
 
I was walking down Yonge last night from St. Claire and the street reeked from the garbage juice run-off after a green bin pick-up. It was worse than any stink during the strike.
 
I was walking down Yonge last night from St. Claire and the street reeked from the garbage juice run-off after a green bin pick-up. It was worse than any stink during the strike.

I agree. Much of the city was rather unbearable yesterday.
 
Worth repeating. Since we seem to be getting the same discussions over and over again on fair wages.

You realize that that's the previous Collective Agreement and that the new one hasn't been published yet, right?
 

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