[roch5220]

Based upon past indications, and maybe others can comment who have also been following the issue, is it appears that it would be applied at the entry points to the city on the highways only. This 'London' type solution is the first real thing I've read that the city has indicated that it is willing to look at that type of system. I've always invisioned a more practical tolling system for Toronto like the way its done in Houston, as opposed to London.

 

[roch5220]

Hence, for the GTA, in my opinion, its easier to just add more Gas taxes, with the money flowing back to municpalities. You are then taxing people for the distance they travel.

 

[mettle]

thanks for the responses.

my question isn't really about what's the best solution to our transit situation (some of the solutions offered so far are admittedly better), but if for some odd reason city council did exacted a congestion charge, how large would the "congestion zone" be? i'm thinking along the lines of what london did (i believe that's where brian ashton is going next week to study the issue). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon...ion_charge for example, from bathurst to jarvis, from north of bloor down to the lake? $5 if you venture inside this zone with a non-exempt vehicle.

 

[afransen TO]

Electronic 407-style tolls would work just dandily in the GTA. Fines don't need to be as drastic or as punitive as the 407, especially during the phase-in period. I think that those who use the highways without a transponder should pay double the rate as with a transponder. Nothing forces you to get one, but it'll save you money in the long run.

Gas taxes don't achieve what highway tolling does: ration scarce highway lanes during peak hours. Smaller cars take up just about as much room on the highway, and shift-workers driving to work at midnight shouldn't be penalised as much as those driving during rush hour.

 

[Chuck100]

Thinking back to the traffic engineering courses I have taken, I believe that highways reach their maximum capacity of 2200 vehicles/hour per lane when traffic is flowing at about 60 km/h. Therefore the toll rate should discourage a sufficient number of drivers such that traffic is always allowed to flow at 60 km/h or higher. At night, the toll may be zero, whereas during a morning snowstorm, the toll might be 2 bucks per km.

However, if you are going to effectively price certain people out of driving, I think that it would be absolutely necessary to provide a quick, reliable and cheap transit system at the same time.

 

[Degnaw]

Thats a map i made a while ago... i guess the 401 should have express lane tolls too. Blue = free, Red = toll

 

[bizorky]

There shouldn't be any charges until Public Transit throughout the GTA is brought up to speed and provides a real alternative.

As much as I support some type of toll system (access to the GTA), I have to agree with the sentiments quoted above. Before a toll is levied against drivers who may have no choice, an alternative to driving should be available, or in the process of development. Once it is established, a portion of the toll should be used to pay for this transit system. Another portion should go highway maintenance.

 

[roch5220]

I think that those who use the highways without a transponder should pay double the rate as with a transponder. Nothing forces you to get one, but it'll save you money in the long run.

How do you propose the non-transponder people pay, in terms of building the infrastructure to support this alternative. The exits downtown arn't exactly space permitting to have toll boths. If you put a toll in everylane, then you slow down the people with ezpass. Your are going to clog and create more congestion anyways unless you have a wide enough exit that can accomadate a lot more lanes, so the traffic to pay with cash doesn't interefere with those with transponders. Then you always have the line cheaters that will clog the exits. The 407 was built with ezpass in mind, other highways were not. The 401 'maybe' be easier to to implement, but the QEW/DVP definitily is the most difficult.

 

[roch5220]

Gas taxes don't achieve what highway tolling does: ration scarce highway lanes during peak hours. Smaller cars take up just about as much room on the highway, and shift-workers driving to work at midnight shouldn't be penalised as much as those driving during rush hour.

Gas taxes aren't the most exact, but they are the easist. Its the same as the TTC, with flat fares, its not fair that you pay the same fare as someone going 2 stops, vs going to 15, plus a feeder bus, or someone travelling at night, vs someone during rushhour.

Which is why I come back to a houston or Mass. type tolling system. The driver just drives up through the toll, and throws change into the collection unit, and then drives away. Even though you may have less drives, these systems could potential create just as much or more congestion around the tolling sections.

 

[JohnnyStalenko]

Gas tax

While I'm inclined to agree that tolls or congestion charges shouldn't be implemented in areas where there is little alternative, there's a part of me that thinks, why the heck not!

...the reason is b/c these people who've decided to live in these areas did so knowing the transit limitations and I doubt they care much about transit anyhow...they're also the one's - by their choice to live in these low density places - that have caused the GTA wide transportation problems in the first place.

...and in doing so, have caused lots of environmental damage along the way...

...and all along have had a relatively free ride for a long time when considering that the gas taxes they pay or the price of the vehicle itself have not been adequate to pay the full cost of car-centric city.

I know this sounds harsh, but it is true. I know some will argue that they've paid through gas taxes...that just simply isn't true...as I said, it doesn't come anywhere near capturing the true costs (i.e. health care, enviromental, tax breaks, public infrastructure expenditures, etc.)...

...and some will say that they've had no other choice b/c of land/housing cost being too high in the core...also that isn't true...no one stopped Mississauga from looking like Paris...or building a more compact dense city...even Hazel's admitted they screwed up...not too many places get a clean slate like they had (these were her own words summarized by the way)...

But all that being said, I think a better alternative would be to just raise gas taxes...a lot...and then embark on a plan to expand public transit first in high dense areas, and then only in areas that meet a minimum density...if the suburbanites want to continue to build as always, then they can pay high taxes (maybe even tolls) without expansion of public transit...to me, there's no point in overlooking a subway line along Eglington to accomodate better Go train service to Georgetown and similar areas...

...all that would do is encourage more sprawl...

 

[aofe11]

Re: Gas tax

I don't see the existing 400 series highways to getting tolls. Maybe the DVP or Gardner might support toll lanes, but not the entire highway. It would simply force more traffic on the North-South and East-West roadways. Better transit is the way to solve traffic issues.

 

[Degnaw]

Re: Gas tax

I don't get the argument about why highways can't support toll booths; why can't you use the 407-type thing again? all you need is a camera looking down on the exit lane, right?

 

[afransen TO]

Re: Gas tax

I agree. I also highly doubt that people are going to be cheap enough to spend hours on avenues to save on tolls. In the long run, if this is a problem, you can put tolls on these avenues as well (and structure them so that genuine local traffic is free, perhaps).

 

[bizorky]

Re: Gas tax

Gas taxes don't achieve what highway tolling does: ration scarce highway lanes during peak hours.

While I see the point you are trying to make, I don't think that tolls ration anything. Converting a portion of a highway into HOV lanes would appear to be a better form of "rationing" the highway, but this does not raise any revenues for alternatives. As for gas taxes, they are simply a means of generating revenue for the government. Additional gasoline taxes should never be considered as a "green" tax until the monies raised are directly invested into transit. Taxing without an established intent does nothing for the environment, or for building mass transit solutions.

Comparing London or New York to Toronto is somewhat excessive. A few minutes in London (the portion where the congestion charges are in effect) is enough to allow one to realize that this portion of the city was not built to support the traffic that had been moving through it, so I think we have to be careful when considering direct comparisons.

What purpose should such a charge/toll serve? Is it a means of taxing road use? Is it a punative action to stop cars entering the downtown core? Is it a means of subsidising mass transit throughout the GTA? Or is it a means of charging individual drivers for their particular choice in transportation? It may be worth taking a moment to consider that tolling/charging roadways in the city may work against the city in the long run, with some businesses choosing locations that do not threaten the movement of their clients or employees. Implementing charges in the downtown may result in traffic chaos just outside that zone.

Either way, determining what you want to do with the revenue from tolls will dictate how traffic is to be charged.

 

[billonlogan]

Re: Gas tax

I wonder if internal polling and focus groups convinced Miller that road tolls and so called congestion tax is popular with a vocal few downtown but very unpopular with the majority. It really would be the kiss of death for any Mayor to go ahead with such a plan. It's politically safer to plead to senior levels of government to boost funding for the TTC.

BoL.


Link to article
Miller: 'Amazing' TTC needed
By ZEN RURYK, CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF

Mayor David Miller yesterday urged people to focus on improving public transit -- not the possibility of road tolls -- as the city moves to fight climate change.

The civic leader addressed about 400 people at a University of Toronto forum prior to last night's appearance at the institution by former U.S. vice-president and environmental crusader Al Gore.

"In Toronto, we have good public transit, but we need to have amazing public transit," Miller said, following his speech.

"We need people in every part of the city to be able to live the way some people do who live near a subway and work downtown," he added.

BOOST FUNDING

Miller has repeatedly called for senior levels of government to boost funding for the financially strapped TTC. The mayor has opposed road tolling, saying it's not fair to hit drivers with charges when they don't have alternatives.

The city is developing a plan to fight climate change that could include measures such as parking levies or even tolls.

During last fall's election, Miller promised to battle global warming and to achieve a 20% reduction in smog-causing pollutants in Toronto by 2012.

Councillor Brian Ashton, chairman of the city's planning and transportation committee, will leave this weekend for a trip to London, England, to examine that city's transportation plan. Miller said Ashton will look at their controversial congestion tax. He added that a report on Toronto's plan to fight global warming is expected next month.

Miller promised to battle global warming and to achieve a 20% reduction in smog-causing pollutants in Toronto by 2012

Very ambitious. Any suggestions for the Mayor to achieve this goal?