[afransen TO]

Re: Gas tax

"I don't think that tolls ration anything"

I disagree? And economic theory tends to agree with me. When driving costs more, people consume less of it.

Tolls could actually be good for the economy. If tolls manage to decrease congestion, JIT deliveries and the like would become more reliable and people would waste less time stewing in their cars. I'd be against tolls inplemented only on some of the region's highways, though.

 

[afransen TO]

Re: Gas tax

Reducing negative externalities decreases demand. I didn't say we should ration access. I said we should ration use.

 

[bizorky]

Re: Gas tax

Gas prices went up considerably and it didn't reduce consumption or significantly alter driving habits. Improved fuel efficiency in automobiles will continue to support automobile use unless something better is avilable for people who otherwise choose to drive.

I'm suggesting rationing access by supporting HOV lanes. Is it perfect? No, but it does put pressure on people who drive alone. One of the central points was to reduce congestion, and reducing the number of vehicles means reducing congestion.

 

[bizorky]

Re: Gas tax

That's only if there is less available. Charging tolls does not make for less highway, so it does not ration access or availability.

Reread your economic theory.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Gas prices went up and it didn't reduce consumption."

Gas prices would have to go up a heck of a lot higher and/or faster to make a noticeable difference.

 

[bizorky]

^I was making an edit while you were posting.

I would agree with you. Combine that fixation to continue driving with vehicles that have improved fuel efficiency and we still end up with congestion because the number of vehicles on the road will not decrease or stabilize.

 

[afransen TO]

"Gas prices went up considerably and it didn't reduce consumption or significantly alter driving habits."

Maybe it didn't change driving habits, but it changed vehicle choices, didn't it? Besides, gas taxes are fairly useless when it comes to discouraging people to drive at a particular time and place.

 

[bizorky]

I was talking about gasoline prices, of which taxes are just a portion of. I've never stated that gasoline taxes are key to changing driver habits.

As for vehicle choices, when talking about congestion we are making reference to the number of vehicles rather than the type. An ever greater number of fuel efficient vehicles on the road does not reduce congestion.

 

[billonlogan]

Finally saner heads prevail...

Toronto councillor not sold on London's congestion fees

TheStar.com
Toronto councillor not sold on London's congestion fees
Toronto unlikely to adopt congestion tax, says councillor
March 03, 2007
Jim Byers
CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF

If congestion fees ever come to the city of Toronto, it won't be a pretty sight.

"There will be headlights shining out of my butt before we ever see congestion charges in Toronto," Councillor Brian Ashton told the Toronto Star.

Ashton, who heads city council's planning and growth management committee, recently spent three days in London, England, where the city has imposed heavy fees on drivers entering the central city.

Ashton, a member of the newly created Greater Toronto Transportation Authority, said in an interview last week the agency would be foolish not to consider the same kind of congestion fees for Toronto. But after checking the situation firsthand, he said he doesn't think the program would work in Toronto.

Ashton (Ward 36, Scarborough Southwest), said London brought in the fees – now about $20 per vehicle – to clear up traffic snarls downtown and not as a tool to encourage public transit and thus battle climate change, which is what many supporters in Toronto have cited as a reason to look at the idea.

"In London, they had so much congestion that buses and taxis and even emergency vehicles in the centre of the city couldn't move."
--------------------------------
As bad as congestion is, we will never compare to London and comparing London to Toronto is not wise. London's population within city limits is 7.5 million. It has a metropolitan area population of between 12 and 14 million.

 

[wyliepoon]

From the Post's Toronto Magazine

Link to article

Toronto's first congestion tax

Sarah B. Hood
National Post

Saturday, March 03, 2007

The intersection of Bathurst and Davenport is not a place where people linger for long, so the funny little building on the northwest corner goes largely unnoticed. Few people would pick it out as a heritage treasure, but in fact it is the only known remaining example of the toll keepers' cottages that used to guard key Toronto intersections in the 1800s.

Long before the advent of Highway 407, tollgates were used to finance roadwork. A plaque at Dundas West near Scarlett Road marks the site of a toll that operated there from 1857 onwards. It informs us that tolls were charged for riders on horseback, wagon drivers and even cattle, although fees were waived for funerals, churchgoers and the military. Kingston Road and Bloor Street were also toll roads.

Davenport had several tollgates; the little cottage at Bathurst, originally located on the southeast corner, was the home and office of the toll keeper for tollgate No. 3. He was authorized to charge between one and six pence, according to the nature of the traffic passing through.

The cottage has been dated to about 1835, but the tollgate may only have started operating around 1850. By 1895, it had been moved. After at least two relocations, it was rediscovered in 1993, and a community effort rescued it and brought it back to the present site. Since then, it has been designated as a historic site by the City of Toronto, and it is now undergoing restoration to an approximation of its original state, including furniture and housewares.

Meanwhile, the Tollkeeper's Cottage is occasionally open to the public. On March 17, traditional Irish snacks will be served there for St. Patrick's Day, and historic walking tours start there every Sunday in May. For more information, contact the Community History Project (416- 515-7546, tollkeeperscottage.ca).

- The Tollkeeper's Cottage is located in Davenport Square Park. Sarah B. Hood is the co-author of Toronto, The Unknown City, published by Arsenal Pulp Press; she continues her urban explorations at unknown toronto.blogspot.com.

 

[waterloowarrior]

You don't have to be as big as London... what about Durham, Singapore, Bergen, Stockholm, Oslo, etc...

 

[Degnaw]

^They're in Europe and have old downtowns that don't have room for 4-lane Adelaides or even 6-lane Spadinas (or a Gardiner, for that matter)

 

[Darkstar416]

^They're in Europe and have old downtowns that don't have room for 4-lane Adelaides or even 6-lane Spadinas (or a Gardiner, for that matter)

Although Paris has HUGE streets downtown and is also considering tolls.