[adma]

Somehow, re some of those low-price Asian outlets, I've got this nagging suspicion they might be the caveat-emptor Knob Hill Farms of our day...

 

[Admiral Beez]

Am I the only one who does this?

Costco is a great place to get a cheap hotdog, fries and ice cream. However the tables are always gross and filthy, with food debris and unidentifiable films spread across the tables. There's nothing you can do to clean the table, right? Wrong. My wife and I go to the hotdog condiment station and grab four or five packets of white vinegar and napkins and then pour it onto the table and wipe it off with the napkins. The result is a near medically-sanitized table top.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Am I the only one who does this?

Costco is a great place to get a cheap hotdog, fries and ice cream. However the tables are always gross and filthy, with food debris and unidentifiable films spread across the tables. There's nothing you can do to clean the table, right? Wrong. My wife and I go to the hotdog condiment station and grab four or five packets of white vinegar and napkins and then pour it onto the table and wipe it off with the napkins. The result is a near medically-sanitized table top.

The vinegar also absorbs or hides the left over smell.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm reviving this thread to discuss an interesting development in the U.S., Costco being part of a mixed-use residential development and serving as the ground-floor tenant.

New Costco Design With Apartments Overhead Has Property Brokers Buzzing

Big Box Retail Chain Usually Isn’t a Ground-Floor Tenant in Multifamily Developments

www.costar.com

It's worth pointing out, this isn't novel, though the first time I've heard of this in awhile. Costco's downtown Vancouver location is also part of a mixed-use development.

But this got me to thinking. How much housing could be building on/over the existing Costco's of Toronto. So I considered location (is this location currently appropriate to residential), then size/configuration/transit.

The site on Wilson is adjacent to Wilson Station, and to existing residential and future (Downsview), the entire plaza is 17ha, or just over 40 acres in size. Allowing for room for a road grid and a significant park, I can still envision 6,000 units of residential density on that site w/o difficulty. If even 5% of those were deeply affordable, that's over 300 units, in just one development.

Overlea is much smaller, but still 5ha/12 acres and could surely manage 2,000 units quite easily.

Warden is about 7ha/17 acres, here, and could surely handle 2,600 units.

Queensway is ~5ha/12 acres and could handle 2,000 units w/o any difficulty.

I'm being, I think, reasonably conservative in my projections here...........and a mere 4 retail sites represent potential for well over 12,000 housing units, of which, one would hope, no less than 600 would be deeply affordable.

I think this is something to bring to Costco Canada's attention, as this not a charitable endeavour, but something that could make them a great deal of money, while also serving a social good.

It also strikes me that there would be some utility in slightly smaller format that could fit in closer to the core as well. The average Costco has a 146,000ft2 floorplate, all on one level.

But the smallest is only 80,000ft2; a 2-storey format under a tower could work in an urban setting.

 

[afransen]

Isn't the problem that Costco is an inherently auto-oriented business? The idea of huge packages of consumer goods is built around the car to transport them to remote, oversized suburban auto-oriented dwellings in a large catchment area. Costco would not work with walk-up or transit oriented customer base.

Vancouver is a bit of an interesting case as it is one of the most under-served markets for grocery retail, due to the difficulty of siting large retail stores.

 

[PinkLucy]

I bike to Costco (we have a bike trailer) but I’m weird like that. We do have bike parking at our Costco though. And it’s a good way to control the impulse buying. . But yes, it is designed for the car. Parking lots are a nightmare at any suburban Costcos … imagine throwing in resident vehicles to the mix. Traffic flow would definitely have to be factored in.

 

[W. K. Lis]

How this family of four transports itself and $900 worth of Costco groceries — all on one bike​

From link.

It began as a quixotic quest.

Derek Rayside, dedicated motorist and Queens Quay condo dweller, was exasperated by the stop-and-go-traffic on what should have been a breezy trip to Costco in south Etobicoke.

The supposed 15-minute journey could take triple that time.

He believed there had to be a better, more pleasant, way to make the monthly shopping expedition with his wife and two young children. This was three years ago during a massive Queens Quay makeover that made driving even worse but brought separated bike lanes.

So, in a moment of inspiration bordering on the Seussian, Rayside made it his mission to get his family — all four of them — on a single bike. Oh, and, at the same time, transport groceries that could total $900.

“Going to Costco to do your shopping is like the ultimate task in family transportation,” says the 42-year-old. “If we can shop at Costco by bike, we can do everything else by bike too.”

Rayside is the associate director of software engineering at the University of Waterloo, so he’s accustomed to tricky problem solving.

He put his puzzler to work.

He made two shopping test rides to Costco on a single bike with his son Colin, now 7, in a child’s seat. The 13.5-kilometre trip was probably the longest he had ever made on two wheels. Rayside doesn’t consider himself a cyclist; he’s more of a “not good” hockey player.

While the cargo pushed his limits physically, Rayside discovered that the trip along the Martin Goodman Trail, north on Park Lawn Rd., across Manitoba St., north again on Royal York Rd. and then west on Queen Elizabeth Blvd., was very safe.

The base bike cost about $4,500, but Rayside said it replaces a family car, a 2000 Toyota which he was able to ditch in 2016.

“It costs dramatically less to operate,” he says of the bike. “It costs less to buy, less to park. Everything costs less.”

The Onderwater XL Triple Tandem arrived two years ago, but it required more tinkering for Rayside to achieve his goal.

The rise up and over the Gardiner Expressway on Royal York, insignificant to a single bike, was like a mountain for a cyclist moving about 275 kilograms. The bike itself, made of steel, Rayside says, is “extremely heavy.” He guesses it weighs around 50 kilograms.

“With two children, two adults plus groceries, any little bump is a hill,” he said.

So he worked with bike technicians in Vancouver, Oakville and at Toronto’s Biseagal to develop and install an electric assist on the bike. Rayside used the best parts he could get so that motor, equal to one horsepower, cost about $3,000. With taxes, upgrades on some accessories and a $500 trailer, it was a $10,000 investment in total.

Now the family does virtually everything downtown by bike, including riding to hockey camp at Moss Park Arena — with sticks strapped to the chain guard — or getting the kids to kung fu classes in Chinatown.

Before the addition of the electric assist, running strictly on the pedal power of three people, the bike’s average speed was 14 kilometres per hour. Now it can motor along at about 20 km/h.

Though, Rayside says, “the guys in Lycra still go faster than us.”

On a recent Sunday, the family cut a striking image as they made their way to and from the Etobicoke store. Colin sat up front followed by Xie, who is five foot four, then the lanky six-foot-four Rayside with Charlotte, 3, in a baby seat behind him. Rayside pilots the bike, doing the shifting, braking and steering.

The day’s groceries totalled $611.32 — down from the previous month’s $900 — with all of it fitting in the trailer except for two Lego advent calendars.

If the family made the ride non-stop it would take about 45 to 50 minutes, the same as a car on a slow day. But, says Rayside, the family cycling adventure is much more fun, with stops to play, as they pedal along the waterfront or through quiet neighbourhoods.

Rayside is a passionate supporter of bike lanes and cycling because of both the health benefits for riders and economic advantages for a city. He believes the only way to reduce traffic congestion is to provide people with alternatives to driving.

Though he calls Toronto’s improvements for the cycling community “slow baby steps” he believes it is possible for families to use pedal power for most errands and outings.

Xie, a stem cell biologist, had never previously cycled — that’s why Rayside thought it safer for them both to be on the same bike — but she has come to love it.

“As a scientist, I’m often in places where there really are no windows, sitting in front of a computer,” she says. “So it’s really nice on the weekend to get out and about, get the fresh air and do what we need to do without ever getting into a car.”

Rayside uses his tandem all year. He has access to a car but only drives it about once a month for distant trips. For work, he takes a Greyhound bus to the University of Waterloo — two hours each way — while Xie, a researcher at the Princess Margaret Cancer Centre, walks or takes transit.

Rayside said his unusual ride draws stares and when he stops, strangers often approach to ask him about it or take a photo.

“The bike brings a smile to everyone’s face,” says Rayside. “It’s a great way to connect with everyone in the city.”

 

[afransen]

The point is not that a cyclist can't shop at a Costco, it is that the business model does not work on a cycling catchment area. It inherently needs drive-up traffic.

 

[Northern Light]

The point is not that a cyclist can't shop at a Costco, it is that the business model does not work on a cycling catchment area. It inherently needs drive-up traffic.

Sure, I don't think I or anyone else suggested that Costco's have zero parking; merely zero surface parking.

I expect that a slightly more walkable, cyclable design in/around stores, with greater local density and increased use of delivery services will allow for less parking than is normative today.

But perhaps, in more suburban locales that's only 20-25% less, with the rest of the parking shifting underground and/or into a parkade.

In a more urban setting, next to higher order transit, I expect they could easily cut parking by 1/2

 

[lenaitch]

Sure, I don't think I or anyone else suggested that Costco's have zero parking; merely zero surface parking.

I expect that a slightly more walkable, cyclable design in/around stores, with greater local density and increased use of delivery services will allow for less parking than is normative today.

But perhaps, in more suburban locales that's only 20-25% less, with the rest of the parking shifting underground and/or into a parkade.

In a more urban setting, next to higher order transit, I expect they could easily cut parking by 1/2

But couldn't that argument be made for any large format retailer? I thought one of the large impediments was zoning that prevented or discouraged ground floor retail in multi-unit residential. That and NIMBYs.

 

[Northern Light]

But couldn't that argument be made for any large format retailer?

Sure, absolutely, and the good news is that Riocan, Smart Centre, and First Capital; along with mall owners CF and Oxford are all, already looking at redevelopment at intensification on the majority of their properties.

I have not yet, however, heard of the same for Costco, which is why I raise the idea.

I thought one of the large impediments was zoning that prevented or discouraged ground floor retail in multi-unit residential. That and NIMBYs.

In Toronto, ground-floor retail is strongly encouraged, if not mandated in multi-res.

What's more of an issue is that Costco historically located in areas zoned 'employment' which typically precludes residential and mixed-use.

It did so, doubtless, because as a very large format warehouse that is nominally (though not really) wholesale......it fits under the more commercial/industrial zoning of a warehouse as opposed to typical retail.

***

However, I looked at each of their sites for proximity to residential, proximity to heavy-industry (smoke stacks, heavy noise) and I don't see an obvious impediment on any of their sites and most are well serviced by transit .

 

[officedweller]

I'm reviving this thread to discuss an interesting development in the U.S., Costco being part of a mixed-use residential development and serving as the ground-floor tenant.

It's worth pointing out, this isn't novel, though the first time I've heard of this in awhile. Costco's downtown Vancouver location is also part of a mixed-use development.

View attachment 452985

But this got me to thinking. How much housing could be building on/over the existing Costco's of Toronto. So I considered location (is this location currently appropriate to residential), then size/configuration/transit.

Design-wise, it is worth noting that the Vancouver Costco is built into an escarpment, where there is access from streets at the top and access from the streets below. This is important because the condo towers above are accessed from the street above, with a couple levels of parking below them, then the Costco below that at grade on the lower street, with its own underground parking lot (also stadium event parking) even further below. That all means that the elevator/service cores for the condos do not penetrate the Costco floorplate, making for a very typical open plan Costco.

 

[lenaitch]

In Toronto, ground-floor retail is strongly encouraged, if not mandated in multi-res.

On reflection, I think I was thinking of retail mixed in with lower density residential, like the corner store of old.

For a company with an entire business model of high volume, discount sales ( 'the $500 store', which these days might be a little dated), allows them to make high volume purchases, it would be interesting to see the fit. A wholesaler/retailer that typically moves a lot of product also needs the facilities to receive a lot of product (tractor trailer access, loading docks, etc.).

 

[W. K. Lis]

Prime retail centre in the Toronto​

Costco anchored project fronting Highway 401 and Islington Avenue. Along with moving the Canadian Tire over.

From link.

• Possession Date: Summer 2023

See thread at link.

 

[ShonTron]

Sure, I don't think I or anyone else suggested that Costco's have zero parking; merely zero surface parking.

I expect that a slightly more walkable, cyclable design in/around stores, with greater local density and increased use of delivery services will allow for less parking than is normative today.

But perhaps, in more suburban locales that's only 20-25% less, with the rest of the parking shifting underground and/or into a parkade.

In a more urban setting, next to higher order transit, I expect they could easily cut parking by 1/2

This is something that IKEA, a store that has a huge catchment area and relies a lot on drive-up traffic does do well, with structured parking and transit shuttles at the North York and Etobicoke locations. Yes, they now have the urban location (and delivery charges are reasonable for anyone without a car) but it’s still a store that could do a full size in an urban site.

The East Portlands, near Lake Shore & Leslie would be an ideal location for a Toronto urban Costco.