[rbt]

L.A.'s Orange Line BRT is a true rapid BRT which has been an incredible success carrying 32,000 a day along it's 14 mile route...

I do agree Finch could be BRT; but Orange Line is a bad example.

Finch West is under 14 miles in length and carries 38,100 passengers in 2011.

For a suitable example, you will need to find a 14 mile 2-lane BRT (with standard intersections) carrying 76,000 passengers (double today's capacity).

Frankly, once you're over 50,000 passengers per day a larger vehicle is warranted. Double-articulated buses might be suitable.

 

[ssiguy2]

I appreciate what you are saying but we also have to remember that if one spends $1 billion on LRT and the same amount on BRT, BRT almost always gets better ridership because it is a fraction the cost of LRT so much larger areas and much bigger populations can be served. Often the strong LRT lobby doesn't take that into account as they will compare similar length systems but not similar prices.

Another excellent quality of BRT is that is is easily extended. This is particularily important in the suburban areas as after leaving a busway they can provide more local service getting rid of that dreaded "last mile" which in the suburbs often results in park-n-rides instead of TOD. People don't mind taking transit but they hate transferring, the SRT is an example of that.

 

[gweed123]

In my opinion, and in general, the only time LRT is a better choice than BRT is if:

1) The projected ridership cannot be handled by BRT, at least beyond the 15 year planning horizon.

2) If the physical necessities of the line in question require all or a portion of it to be elevated or tunnelled, and no clear ROW is available.

Lines like the DMLRT south of Eglinton and the SRT fall into #1. The projected ridership is simply beyond what BRT can effectively handle, unless some type of extreme configuration is used to boost capacity.

Lines like Eglinton fall into #2. There just isn't an effective way to run a BRT along the surface across the central stretch of Eglinton, and tunnelling BRT for that long of a stretch just isn't an option.

If the line you're planning is an at-grade in-median LRT with a projected 2031 ridership of 3,000 pphpd, I'm sorry, but there's no reasons beyond politics and personal bias why that line NEEDS to be LRT. Especially if the plans for the line had to be scaled back (with sections of the line deferred until a future phase) because there wasn't enough money to build it all in 1 shot. Here's a revelation: maybe if you chose BRT instead, you'd have more money available to build more of the line, instead of waiting for more money later.

 

[ssiguy2]

There are now new BRT vehicles in Germany that are 30 meters long.........standard LRT length. Certainly LRT has the advantage of being able to be coupled but then BRT can run at much higher frequencies. Finch is an example where effective BRT could easily handle the ridership levels but would cost a fraction the price and be much easier and faster to build.

 

[Grimace]

What about Waterfront West BRT? Humber Bay Shores/Western Beaches/Ontario Place/Ex/Fort York/Cityplace/Bremner/Union (at ACC)

 

[jaycola]

I might suggest BRT for the section of Yonge north from finch to Hwy 7 (as was proposed 10 years ago) but it might be immediately successful and nobody wants that...well, not till the DRL is built.
Check out this city of Toronto report from 8 years ago (2004).
Toronto North Yonge Study
We could have had BRT on Yonge years ago. I wish they would have just moved on it. Now we won't have any higher order transit in what could possibly be the busiest intersection in the city for both cusses and personal vehicles for a decade at least.
Traffic counts.

! Highest volume of buses in the City
A number of transit routes are offered within the larger study area, as
shown on the exhibit. These transit routes are operated by the Toronto
Transit Commission (TTC), GO Transit, York Region Transit (YRT) and
Brampton Transit (BT).
117 buses are operated during the AM peak hour southbound on Yonge
Street (65 TTC, 12 GO and 40 YRT/BT) carrying approximately 3,000
passengers to the TTC Finch subway
station, and 1,500 passengers to the
GO Finch Terminal.
57% of southbound total person
trips use transit in the AM peak hour.

 

[BurlOak]

In my opinion, and in general, the only time LRT is a better choice than BRT is if:

1) The projected ridership cannot be handled by BRT, at least beyond the 15 year planning horizon.

2) If the physical necessities of the line in question require all or a portion of it to be elevated or tunnelled, and no clear ROW is available.

Lines like the DMLRT south of Eglinton and the SRT fall into #1. The projected ridership is simply beyond what BRT can effectively handle, unless some type of extreme configuration is used to boost capacity.

Lines like Eglinton fall into #2. There just isn't an effective way to run a BRT along the surface across the central stretch of Eglinton, and tunnelling BRT for that long of a stretch just isn't an option.

If the line you're planning is an at-grade in-median LRT with a projected 2031 ridership of 3,000 pphpd, I'm sorry, but there's no reasons beyond politics and personal bias why that line NEEDS to be LRT. Especially if the plans for the line had to be scaled back (with sections of the line deferred until a future phase) because there wasn't enough money to build it all in 1 shot. Here's a revelation: maybe if you chose BRT instead, you'd have more money available to build more of the line, instead of waiting for more money later.

Based on Metrolinx numbers, Sheppard East will carry 3000 pphpd in 2031 and Finch West will carry 2800 (http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...25/TorontoTransit_BoardReport_25April2012.pdf). With articulated busses, this works out to a bus every 2 minutes. Already, it appears that Finch East has 63 busses per hour in am peak, Finch West has 35, and Sheppard East has 29 and both Steeles busses have over 30 (http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership.jsp).

Basically, we need artic busses every 2 minutes - maybe just under 30 trains per hour. What type of BRT Lite options would be applicable to Sheppard East and Finch to make this frequency reliably achievable, and perhaps increased in case demand is exceeded. And, how much money would be required to achieve this - probably much less than the $400M to $500M (each) that would be required for full BRT - or is the OneCity estimate completely out of thin air. The OneCity estimate was about $35M/km for BRT and $80M or more for LRT, depending on any tunnelling that is required (http://onecitytransitplan.com/the-onecity-plan/list-of-all-onecity-transit-plan-projects/).

 

[gweed123]

What about Waterfront West BRT? Humber Bay Shores/Western Beaches/Ontario Place/Ex/Fort York/Cityplace/Bremner/Union (at ACC)

Normally I would say yes, but the WW alignment requires a fair bit of tunnelling in the Southcore area (certainly at least from the Rogers Centre into Union). The ventilation required to have that be a bus tunnel would be significantly more expensive (at least for that part). Not to mention they plan on using the same loop for most of the waterfront lines, no?

Based on Metrolinx numbers, Sheppard East will carry 3000 pphpd in 2031 and Finch West will carry 2800 (http://www.metrolinx.com/en/docs/pd...25/TorontoTransit_BoardReport_25April2012.pdf). With articulated busses, this works out to a bus every 2 minutes. Already, it appears that Finch East has 63 busses per hour in am peak, Finch West has 35, and Sheppard East has 29 and both Steeles busses have over 30 (http://www3.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Transit_Planning/Surface_Ridership.jsp).

Basically, we need artic busses every 2 minutes - maybe just under 30 trains per hour. What type of BRT Lite options would be applicable to Sheppard East and Finch to make this frequency reliably achievable, and perhaps increased in case demand is exceeded. And, how much money would be required to achieve this - probably much less than the $400M to $500M (each) that would be required for full BRT - or is the OneCity estimate completely out of thin air. The OneCity estimate was about $35M/km for BRT and $80M or more for LRT, depending on any tunnelling that is required (http://onecitytransitplan.com/the-onecity-plan/list-of-all-onecity-transit-plan-projects/).

2 minutes for buses is a pretty manageable frequency. The infrastructure that I think would be required would be:

1) Signal priority at all intersections. That one is pretty much a no-brainer.

2) Dedicated bus lanes along congested parts of Finch & Sheppard. Doesn't have to be everywhere, but just in places between major intersections where things tend to clog up. For Finch, that would be pretty much anywhere between say Bathurst and Bayview. For Sheppard, that's from Victoria Park to Don Mills.

3) Queue jump lanes at major intersections along stretches where full dedicated lanes aren't required. This would hold true for the outer stretches of both Finch and Sheppard, where traffic (unless there's an accident, etc) is relatively free-flowing.

4) For the stretches where dedicated lanes aren't required, curb-side cut-outs so the buses can pull out of traffic, unload, and then pull back in. Of course, most of the BRT stops will be at intersections anyway, so there may not need to be too many of these.

5) Reduce the peak period peak point ridership by providing multiple perpendicular transfers, and generate peak-counter flow. For example, if the Bloor-Danforth Subway were to be extended to Sheppard & McCowan, the ridership on Sheppard would no longer be uni-directional (i.e. pretty much all towards Don Mills). A lot of people from east of McCowan would exit at McCowan, and even a few people from west of there would take the Sheppard BRT eastbound instead of westbound, in order to reach the subway. By doing this, you lower the peak point peak hour ridership, and you make more efficient use of the buses heading back in the opposite direction of the peak flow. For Finch, this would be things like the Jane BRT & Don Mills BRTs, the Bloor-Danforth Subway (BRT from Finch down McCowan into the station), and the Brampton-Markham GO REX station at Malton. All of those lines would reduce the peak flow into Finch & Finch West stations.

PS: Interesting that Finch West is only 2,800. I remember seeing in the RTP Backgrounder from a few years back 4,500, but then again that was for the entire Finch West line, not just the western half. 4,500 is still within BRT range, and 2,800 definitely is. I like the fact that for the SRT Metrolinx used the phrasing "within the range of LRT", whereas for Sheppard East and Finch West they used the phrasing "well within the range of LRT".

I might suggest BRT for the section of Yonge north from finch to Hwy 7 (as was proposed 10 years ago) but it might be immediately successful and nobody wants that...well, not till the DRL is built.
Check out this city of Toronto report from 8 years ago (2004).
Toronto North Yonge Study
We could have had BRT on Yonge years ago. I wish they would have just moved on it. Now we won't have any higher order transit in what could possibly be the busiest intersection in the city for both cusses and personal vehicles for a decade at least.
Traffic counts.

IIRC, the Yonge BRT in York Region was almost ready to be funded and built, when it was decided to scrap it and pursue the subway option instead. Even given the best of circumstances, the subway would have been at least 10 years away, and the BRT would have been a great interim solution. Now years later the subway is still at least 10 years away, and there's no BRT.

 

[Ed Drass]

I might suggest BRT for the section of Yonge north from finch to Hwy 7 (as was proposed 10 years ago) but it might be immediately successful and nobody wants that...well, not till the DRL is built.
Check out this city of Toronto report from 8 years ago (2004).
Toronto North Yonge Study
We could have had BRT on Yonge years ago. I wish they would have just moved on it. Now we won't have any higher order transit in what could possibly be the busiest intersection in the city for both cusses and personal vehicles for a decade at least.

I wonder how much of the missed opportunity of BRT on Yonge north of Finch can be attributed to acknowledgment that more bus traffic could overload the subway or ...

-vehement local opposition to permanent bus lanes
-vain hope for a subway extension.

Ed D.

PS: Permanent bus lanes were proposed by city as early as 2000 and likely before.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Another advantage of a bus rapid transit is that the buses can be diverted off the right-of-way in an emergency. Such as a fire, propane explosion, or wet football players at a school playing field that ended early. (That last one is an emergency, right?)

 

[gweed123]

Another advantage of a bus rapid transit is that the buses can be diverted off the right-of-way in an emergency. Such as a fire, propane explosion, or wet football players at a school playing field that ended early. (That last one is an emergency, right?)

Or even just in the case of an accident at an intersection or something. There is mounds of photographic (and eye witness) evidence showing lines of streetcars backed up behind a disabled vehicle or an accident. Whenever this happens, they usually either detour, or replace the streetcars with buses so they can get around the blockage.

PS: Too bad the game wasn't being played directly adjacent to a streetcar line. It would have been amazing if Ford called for a bus and a streetcar showed up instead .

 

[jaycola]

I wonder how much of the missed opportunity of BRT on Yonge north of Finch can be attributed to acknowledgment that more bus traffic could overload the subway or ...

-vehement local opposition to permanent bus lanes
-vain hope for a subway extension.

Ed D.

PS: Permanent bus lanes were proposed by city as early as 2000 and likely before.

I wouldn't call it a "vain hope" since this is a logical extension of the subway but agree it was killed for want of higher order transit.

That said, what is the status of plans for the area at this time? If they came up with a plan for BRT for this area, would there be support for the project if it was found that it would be successful or would the project be stymied because of the pressure added to the Yonge line? I know that Yonge is already experiencing overload at times. Would a successful BRT for this area not simply add to the problem?

The real question is what can we do for commuters in this area that won't add pressure to the Yonge line? As stated many times before this is one of the busiest intersections in the city for auto and bus traffic during peak times.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Or even just in the case of an accident at an intersection or something. There is mounds of photographic (and eye witness) evidence showing lines of streetcars backed up behind a disabled vehicle or an accident. Whenever this happens, they usually either detour, or replace the streetcars with buses so they can get around the blockage.

PS: Too bad the game wasn't being played directly adjacent to a streetcar line. It would have been amazing if Ford called for a bus and a streetcar showed up instead .

Or even just in the case of an accident at a station or something. There is mounds of photographic (and eye witness) evidence showing lines of subway trains backed up behind a disabled vehicle or an accident. Whenever this happens, they usually either detour, or replace the subway trains with buses so they can get around the blockage.

PS: Too bad the game wasn't being played directly adjacent to a subway line. It would have been amazing if Ford called for a bus and a subway train showed up instead .

 

[JayBeeGooner]

I wonder how much of the missed opportunity of BRT on Yonge north of Finch can be attributed to acknowledgment that more bus traffic could overload the subway or ...

-vehement local opposition to permanent bus lanes
-vain hope for a subway extension.

Ed D.

PS: Permanent bus lanes were proposed by city as early as 2000 and likely before.

I remember when I read that York Region cancelled the bus lanes on Yonge, because they were anticipating Yonge Subway extension. What a dumb move.

 

[ssiguy2]

The only advantage I can see for LRT along Finch/Shep is that any rail system is better able to handle snow than a bus. On the other hand, a bus keeps running when the power goes out and one accident on a roadway during snow would bring the entire LRT line to a halt while buses could reroute.

As much as I can't stand Ford I always thought he was, atleast partly right..................Eglinton should be grade separated and the extra funds to do so be taken from Finch LRT and turn it into BRT. Where I disagreed with hime was using LRT technology and tunneling under Eglinton east of Don Mills as it should be elevated.

With the amount of traffic Finch is suppose to carry of about 4,000 pphpd, LRT much larger price tag, much more disruptive to build, longer to build, relatively slow speed, increasing size and capacity of bus {now up to 30 meters} I cannot think of any advantage of the LRT has over BRT. The only case for LRT is an enviornmental one but if that is a concern the BRT could eventually be turned into trolley but still have far better manuverability than an LRT as trolleys, unlike LRT, can also run on gas during power outages or service/road disruption.