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I’ll move on when more than 4% of trips are bike trips?
This isn't a debating society. Nor is it strictly about the number of trips - obviously reducing deaths is more important than other factors.

Please stop this - or reserve this to one or two posts a year. (and in the last year or so, there seems to be more than one poster, and topic, that this applies to).

For the more philosophical discussions there's other threads, such as https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/general-cycling-issues-is-toronto-bike-friendly.4842/page-244
 
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The folks that struggle to afford a winter coat don't, by and large, own cars. They would mainly be taking transit.

In the City of Toronto, particularly closer to the core, I think that's mostly true; but I think as you head out into suburbia, even inner-suburbia, where you often get buses with 22M headways that sometimes come every 44M in pairs..... people find the money for a car.......because they can't or won't count on transit to get them to their job, that's why they struggle with 'nice to haves'.

As you get into the outer burbs, there's lots of foodbank use and a very low modal share for transit. I think making that connection there just doesn't hold up.

Though, admittedly, we're both making observations here rather than proffering evidence, I will have to do some digging as I think I can some up w/some hard numbers.

And even in the Netherlands, most commuting trips are done by car (65%), it's more about substituting short local trips done by car with walking and cycling.

Right, but the discussion regarding Bloor West, which this has centered around is very much about travel times at peak times, when the largest share of car traffic is commuter traffic.

I'm not sure country-level stats are the right choice for the above.......but I'm not disagreeing with the thrust of what you're saying...

I'm simply saying that some statements that amount to everyone can and should bike instead are over-reach, that's all.

That said, you got me curious.........

Here's modal share by City/Region according to Wikipedia.


Just for the sake of discussion, I'll bring the Toronto numbers forward:

1720227141900.png


1720227118289.png


Bikeshare could do a lot to help manage the lack of bike storage infrastructure in apartments and workplaces. Also helps a lot with maintenance and theft concerns. And they have fenders!

I agree............though.... Toronto has 1.4M renters....... clearly not all are commuters to work, that includes children, seniors, the unemployed etc............but if even 1/3 are adult commuters, that's 450,000......the largest bikeshare system on the planet is Paris' as far I know, and its at 19,000 bikes............there's a big gap there.
 
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This isn't a debating society. Nor is it strictly about the number of trips - obviously reducing deaths is more important than other factors.

Please stop this - or reserve this to one or two posts a year. (and in the last year or so, there seems to be more than one poster, and topic, that this applies to).
Can you please stop telling other individuals what to do? We live in a free society.

It’s funny we’re not a debate society until anybody wants a subway line in an area with low density, etc.
 
I'm not about to defend Turban Planner, and am as pro-cycling as they come pretty much; but I do think the rah rah for everyone can do it and in all weather and at all times of year is just too over the top.

Many people aren't in the physical shape required...........they'd be exhausted/sore and maybe risking a heart attack by the 10th block (1.5km) never mind their typical commutes, which for many are 20km ++

Additionally, many people don't own and can't afford top notch winter gear, there are a lot of working class folks who struggle to get generic winter jacket number 2 from Walmart and a pair of mittens or gloves, the idea that everyone can afford their hyper-insulated, breathable, sweat-wicking, stain-resistant, rip-stop gear along with a good bike is just disconnected from reality.

That's before considering the theft issue noted above, and even lack of covered, never mind secure bike storage at one's workplace (or residential) destination.

Most apartments in Toronto lack ground floor or in-garage bicycle storage. You have to haul a bike into an elevator, then pop it up on end, making a mess of the cab and driving the management nuts, while occupying almost the entire elevator and inconveniencing your fellow tenants.

Trying do that twice a day (or 4x if you have extra errands to run) and some of you will give up biking.........

There's also the matter of having showers and a change of clothes when you get to work.

You know most workplaces don't offer this, right?

*******

Now, let's be clear, I'm pro cycling as much as ever and don't like tired trope arguments against it. But I don't think those are countered by statements that have every bit as much slant/spin and are equally off the mark.

The object is not to get everyone to bike, there is no believable scenario for this in most of the GTA and there won't be in 10 years either. The objective is:

a) Make it much safer and more pleasant for existing riders

b) Raise the modal split for cycling substantially, in areas of high cycling from 10/15% to 25% or more; in areas of low cycling ~2%, the realistic object is to get that to ~10% over a few years and 15% within 15 years.

c) Getting even that done requires a lot of heavy lifting:

-We need retrofits to existing work places, with government leading by example, offering secure, indoor, bike parking and showers at most workplaces.

- We need a vastly expanded Bikeshare system. Just to cover the City proper will require ~1,400 bikes or so, but if you think of near universal uptake, and most bikes going one way per peak-hour, that's only 1,400 commuters using bikes. Making a larger difference means thinking about a system the size of Paris, Velib for the GTA, - 19,000 bikes, with roughly 6,000 of those in the City proper.

- It means free Canbike level one for every school child and every adult who wants to learn to ride.,

- It means mandating landlords to provide secure, ground-floor bike storage, wherever possible (displacing surfacing parking/carports)

- The government should lead by providing this at major TCHC projects.

- It also means snowmelt systems around catch basins/road drains to reduce the liklihood of ice buildup when roads are reconstructed.

- Don't forget a need for more year-round public washrooms, as not everyone can hold it for another 2km until they pass an open fast food place or such.

****

Lets rightly defend the installation of these lanes, while seeing if we can't reduce some of their worst impacts.

But lets also champion the above...........and while we're getting 'the carrot' right..........we need 'the stick' too, of highway tolls and of higher permit parking rates that reflect fair market value.
the people who don't bike all year are a combination of these things
- people cant afford things
- people dont have space to store things
- people dont like sweating
- dont like getting rain or snowed on

and tbh most of those are solved with money.
As someone who has an ebike, can store it safely in apartments I think the arguments are a bit overblown.

when asked personally about things like winter riding my response is literally just

"Where there's a will there's a way"

too cold in winter? buy layers. or even a better coat. If 50$ is too much for you, you have bigger problems
cant store your bike? get a tiny folding ebike for $500
dont like sweating? get an ebike. They might be more expensive but theyre 100% worth it.
dont like getting rained on? get a poncho.
worried about snow or wet conditions? get grippy tires like you would on a car.

You can bring up the stat saying "x people cant afford a $100 bill". The popularity of high-end stores says otherwise

Building new infrastructure is great, but an ebike tax credit or even just straight cash, would work wonders for biking.
 
the people who don't bike all year are a combination of these things
- people cant afford things
- people dont have space to store things
- people dont like sweating
- dont like getting rain or snowed on

and tbh most of those are solved with money.
As someone who has an ebike, can store it safely in apartments I think the arguments are a bit overblown.

when asked personally about things like winter riding my response is literally just

"Where there's a will there's a way"

too cold in winter? buy layers. or even a better coat. If 50$ is too much for you, you have bigger problems
cant store your bike? get a tiny folding ebike for $500
dont like sweating? get an ebike. They might be more expensive but theyre 100% worth it.
dont like getting rained on? get a poncho.
worried about snow or wet conditions? get grippy tires like you would on a car.

You can bring up the stat saying "x people cant afford a $100 bill". The popularity of high-end stores says otherwise

Building new infrastructure is great, but an ebike tax credit or even just straight cash, would work wonders for biking.
If Toronto Bike share included e-bikes in the base 30 minute plan, and was able to iron out parking issues at major stations. I think that might actually really help!
 
If Toronto Bike share included e-bikes in the base 30 minute plan, and was able to iron out parking issues at major stations. I think that might actually really help!
Oh yea those ebikes are amazing, if only every bike was an ebike LOL. Still feels like a pot of gold as it did 3 years ago
 
In the City of Toronto, particularly closer to the core, I think that's mostly true; but I think as you head out into suburbia, even inner-suburbia, where you often get buses with 22M headways that sometimes come every 44M in pairs..... people find the money for a car.......because they can't or won't count on transit to get them to their job, that's why they struggle with 'nice to haves'.

As you get into the outer burbs, there's lots of foodbank use and a very low modal share for transit. I think making that connection there just doesn't hold up.

Though, admittedly, we've both making observations here rather than evidence, I will have to do some digging as I think I can some up w/some hard numbers.
The poor folks that own a car are the biggest potential beneficiaries of better bike infra. Cars cost a minimum of $4-5k to keep on the road per year
 
The poor folks that own a car are the biggest potential beneficiaries of better bike infra. Cars cost a minimum of $4-5k to keep on the road per year

You're not hearing me argue against that............

I'm just arguing against rhetorical excess.

It always gives me an allergic reaction.
 
E-bikes are a game-changer for micro mobility, and do quite a ways to alleviate the legitimate complaints about discomfort. I’m excited to see more roll out in Toronto via Bikeshare, and think there should be built-in chargers at the stations.

E-bikes + Bikeshare + a safe (separated?) bike lane network would do wonders with modal share.

I really like Turbanplanner’s idea of including some free e-bike minutes with your membership, but caution that it would probably come with a hike in membership dues.

Some interesting notes from Citibike:



- Approx. 2/3 of rides are electric
- Only approx 20% of the fleet is electric (!) showing clear customer preference
- Citibike usage has skyrocketed as NYC has built more separated bike lanes (unfortunately the current mayor seems set to rip some of them out or stop progress altogether)
- A lot of the cost for electric bikes relates to battery-swapping, which is why station chargers are being investigated
 
E-bikes are a game-changer for micro mobility, and do quite a ways to alleviate the legitimate complaints about discomfort. I’m excited to see more roll out in Toronto via Bikeshare, and think there should be built-in chargers at the stations.

E-bikes + Bikeshare + a safe (separated?) bike lane network would do wonders with modal share.

I really like Turbanplanner’s idea of including some free e-bike minutes with your membership, but caution that it would probably come with a hike in membership dues.

Some interesting notes from Citibike:



- Approx. 2/3 of rides are electric
- Only approx 20% of the fleet is electric (!) showing clear customer preference
- Citibike usage has skyrocketed as NYC has built more separated bike lanes (unfortunately the current mayor seems set to rip some of them out or stop progress altogether)
- A lot of the cost for electric bikes relates to battery-swapping, which is why station chargers are being investigated
You know ive always been skeptical about those Lyft run bike-share systems.
If it doesnt make money now, they will just continually raise fees. Something that Bike Share Toronto wont do as often
 
If Toronto Bike share included e-bikes in the base 30 minute plan, and was able to iron out parking issues at major stations. I think that might actually really help!

My friend works for Toronto Bike Share and the issue he says is that they need to actively price the e-bikes in conjunction with Uber Eats pay. Because if they make the ebikes affordable enough, unfortunately they all instantly disappear from docks as uber eats delivery people use them.

Not really the intention of TBS. So they have to price them accordingly so people don't use them to profit a private business.
 
My friend works for Toronto Bike Share and the issue he says is that they need to actively price the e-bikes in conjunction with Uber Eats pay. Because if they make the ebikes affordable enough, unfortunately they all instantly disappear from docks as uber eats delivery people use them.

Not really the intention of TBS. So they have to price them accordingly so people don't use them to profit a private business.
Is that true? When TBS introduced the ebike fee they said it was because other cities do it and it helps with the increased service needed for ebikes
 
Is that true? When TBS introduced the ebike fee they said it was because other cities do it and it helps with the increased service needed for ebikes
I imagine it's a bit of both. Selfishly, I'd prefer a lower charge as the $0.10/min e-bike charge for members quickly approaches a TTC fare. But I appreciate that they require charging infrastructure (or increased repositioning) and are more expensive to purchase.
 
I'm a bit surprised at how low our e-bike per minute pricing is after looking up some other bike share programs. All $ in CAD

CitySingle ride/day passAnnual/monthly members
Toronto$0.20/min$0.10/min
Montreal (Bixi)$0.35/min$0.17/min
Boston (BlueBikes)$0.34/min$0.14/min
Chicago (Divvy)$0.60/min$0.25/min
New York City (Citi Bike)$0.41/min$0.27/min
 
The poor folks that own a car are the biggest potential beneficiaries of better bike infra. Cars cost a minimum of $4-5k to keep on the road per year
Every time I see numbers like this they feel incredibly inflated unless your target is someone with a new Benz or buys a new civic when the warranty expires
 

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