[sixrings]

Given that many Scarborians voted for Doug Ford, who has now indefinitely deferred the new GO Stations in Scarborough, and who will surely only delay the planned construction start of the Line 2 extension to Scarborough Town Centre which is fully-funded in the current TTC budget, with spending of over $100 million in 2019, peaking at $551 million in 2002 - perhaps Scarborians are their own-worst enemy.

They are... the end. I no longer even think that Coffey or one city are just the rare scarborough residents blowing hot air on here that other scarborough residents don't agree with. If that were true I would think someone would speak up sanely on behalf of their borough.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't believe the public knows for a second what they want, other than that they want something better than today. All of the options can look attractive to the public, depending on their level of understanding of the issue, how the questions are asked, what options are on the table, etc... Of course, the public has a very poor understanding of the issue, and their perceptions are clouded by years of rhetoric from the media and politicians, so whatever the public ostensibly prefers (and keep in mind that the public will prefer different options based on the framing of the problem) has nothing to do with which option has the best technical merits.

The only thing the public could be asked is for initial input.
- On a scale of 1 to 10, how do they feel about a transfer. 1 being hate. 5 being ok with improved transfer, 10 being no transfer.
- How much to they oppose elevate transit.
- How much to they prefer speed vs. stops.
Even these can be framed much differently (i.e. Do you want to be underground or above ground with a nice view) - but it's maybe the best we can do.
Get the initial input, and then show the public what the resulting plan will be. No more input. No more opinions.

 

[BurlOak]

I don't believe the public knows for a second what they want, other than that they want something better than today. All of the options can look attractive to the public, depending on their level of understanding of the issue, how the questions are asked, what options are on the table, etc... Of course, the public has a very poor understanding of the issue, and their perceptions are clouded by years of rhetoric from the media and politicians, so whatever the public ostensibly prefers (and keep in mind that the public will prefer different options based on the framing of the problem) has nothing to do with which option has the best technical merits.

Asking the public which option is best is almost like asking your 12-year-old for an opinion on mortgage options. Yes, they're directly impacted by the decision, but they're so hopelessly undereducated that any advice they give is effectively worthless. Ideally, living in a representative democracy should fix this problem, through allowing the public to elect learned representatives to make educated decisions on their behalf. But transit in Toronto has been so politicized, that politicians are now pandering entirely to the whims of public opinion, which the politicians themselves are directly manipulating with their rhetoric. It's a vicious cycle that ensures that any decision made in this area will have nothing to do with what is genuinely the best option.

Sometimes I wish we lived under the rule of a benevolent technocrat. But with human nature being what it is, there's no such thing as a benevolent technocrat.

This is the end result of Jane Jacobs legacy. Public has the ultimate say.
We no longer trust the engineers to do the designs. The engineers job is to build the infrastructure to carry projected demand, and maintain adequate traffic (transit, pedestrian, car, bus) during construction. They monetize the benefits and inconvenience and determine the best bang for the buck. This process got the entire Yonge and B-D subway built.
Now things changed. Everything they do is open to public debate and input. Because of this, the process wants to appease the public. The politician then prioritizes the appeasement of the public over all else. Conflicting public opinion means indecision as not offending one group is a priority over building something.

Sometimes I wish we lived under the rule of a benevolent technocrat. But with human nature being what it is, there's no such thing as a benevolent technocrat.

As stated above, we did have this in the recent past. And it doesn't have to go all the way to the China model.

 

[sixrings]

That's right miller was a dictator and ford is simply a misunderstood peace maker putting things back to order. That all makes sense.

A decade of PCs and all we have is needing to look for more private sector ways to finance these subways subways subways.

Wait a minute...Maybe it's the fact the dictating liberals still have power at sussex street. Once we get three levels of pc government everything will be set right.

Likely then the heavens will part and jesus will come back to celebrate humanities victory while casting Wynne into a fiery pit making the last 1000 pages of this thread moot.

 

[lrt's friend]

three levels of PC government may result in agreement on the way forward, but fiscal restraint will dictate that there will be no shovel in the ground. In other words, lots of talk and no action.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Given that many Scarborians voted for Doug Ford, who has now indefinitely deferred the new GO Stations in Scarborough, and who will surely only delay the planned construction start of the Line 2 extension to Scarborough Town Centre which is fully-funded in the current TTC budget, with spending of over $100 million in 2019, peaking at $551 million in 2002 - perhaps Scarborians are their own-worst enemy.

Maybe so but if the PCs want to keep a majority then according to some here they must fulfill their subway promises or be kicked out of office since there is a line up of other parties so willing to cater to their wishes.

Ironic that if the NDP or Liberals had won, the continuation of the subway and other Scarborough transit projects (RER stations, EELRT), likely would not have been threatened.

 

[sixrings]

Ironic that if the NDP or Liberals had won, the continuation of the subway and other Scarborough transit projects (RER stations, EELRT), likely would not have been threatened.

LRTS are streetcars (keep those and hipster bikelanes downtown please) and unless RER is as frequent and the same low cost as a TTC token then it is useless to us blue collar workers from Scarborough.

 

[Rainforest]

We no longer trust the engineers to do the designs. The engineers job is to build the infrastructure to carry projected demand, and maintain adequate traffic (transit, pedestrian, car, bus) during construction. They monetize the benefits and inconvenience and determine the best bang for the buck. This process got the entire Yonge and B-D subway built.
Now things changed. Everything they do is open to public debate and input. Because of this, the process wants to appease the public. The politician then prioritizes the appeasement of the public over all else. Conflicting public opinion means indecision as not offending one group is a priority over building something.

I believe the cost escalation (well above inflation) had a larger impact than any process changes. The public was getting involved in the past, too. It's just the cost implications were smaller and therefore it was easier to achieve a working consensus.

Remember that the Queen Streetcar Subway was planned concurrently with the first phase of Yonge, but never materialized except for the unused Lower Queen station. So much for trusting the engineers back then.

 

[Rainforest]

I don't believe the public knows for a second what they want, other than that they want something better than today. All of the options can look attractive to the public, depending on their level of understanding of the issue, how the questions are asked, what options are on the table, etc... Of course, the public has a very poor understanding of the issue, and their perceptions are clouded by years of rhetoric from the media and politicians, so whatever the public ostensibly prefers (and keep in mind that the public will prefer different options based on the framing of the problem) has nothing to do with which option has the best technical merits.

Asking the public which option is best is almost like asking your 12-year-old for an opinion on mortgage options. Yes, they're directly impacted by the decision, but they're so hopelessly undereducated that any advice they give is effectively worthless. Ideally, living in a representative democracy should fix this problem, through allowing the public to elect learned representatives to make educated decisions on their behalf. But transit in Toronto has been so politicized, that politicians are now pandering entirely to the whims of public opinion, which the politicians themselves are directly manipulating with their rhetoric. It's a vicious cycle that ensures that any decision made in this area will have nothing to do with what is genuinely the best option.

Sometimes I wish we lived under the rule of a benevolent technocrat. But with human nature being what it is, there's no such thing as a benevolent technocrat.

That's largely true, but it should be noted that the future of transit in the Kennedy - STC corridor had received extensive media coverage in the past 10 years or so. That means, people who know exactly what they want might still make a minority of all residents, but that minority is larger than in case of other transit projects that aren't in the spotlight.

Ironic that if the NDP or Liberals had won, the continuation of the subway and other Scarborough transit projects (RER stations, EELRT), likely would not have been threatened.

Even SSE might have had better luck if the Liberals stayed for 4 more years. They would build the stripped-down one-stop version, but at least the chapter would be closed. We have more uncertainty now.

 

[OneCity]

That's largely true, but it should be noted that the future of transit in the Kennedy - STC corridor had received extensive media coverage in the past 10 years or so. That means, people who know exactly what they want might still make a minority of all residents, but that minority is larger than in case of other transit projects that aren't in the spotlight.



Even SSE might have had better luck if the Liberals stayed for 4 more years. They would build the stripped-down one-stop version, but at least the chapter would be closed. We have more uncertainty now.

Over a decade a ago I moved in the heart of Malvern. Oddly most neighbours/people I commuted to work with were convinced the subway was coming to Malvern or were very upset the City had not already connect the subway which was floated for decades. I heard zero support for the LRT and It wasn't just a few people and transit was a big topic of small talk discussion next to the weather. Yet oddly Id read the opposite view in the news and see their polls telling a far different story, our local Scarborough mirror (metroland) was a weekly LRT advertisement and promotion too for the inner City NDP. It all seemed as if LRT was being forced and was very strange non Scarborough centric reporting.

And low and behold the next election saw every relevant Mayoral candidate run vocally and directly against the LRT and a bull in a china shop, loud mouth candidate campaigning directly on tearing up the transit plan the people don't want. The Liberals were already backtracking on funding and construction starts well before election season and not long after the plan was overturned were soon self proclaimed "subway champions" themselves. Since the "debate" finally surfaced to the public the political support for the subway loop in Scarborough speaks for itself. Its 99% political support subway support from MPP's, MP's, councillors, all party leaders/runners up, and Mayors/runner ups in all the elections since. Even a few years later NDP councillor Shan was a very vocal advocate for the SSE in Malvern. Yet the Citys Left media and their polls still reported the debate contrary to what is now clearly overwhelming political Scarborough support.

So NO I don't believe the NDP the would have built the line. Horwath said the right thing this election to not stir the pot. But if you listen to the very pro LRT union groups and transit special interest groups directly connected to the NDP the message they were promoting was far different. Then we had a "Planner"/Politician who recommended stripping the stops was working on her own ambitions to get into politics for the Left. So there certainly looked like a lot of smoke here to set the stage on to cancel such an absurd one stop plan at 30%. Odd when push came to shove in the Mayoral race she also let her most polarized inner City base down by staying silent on derailing the SSE. Make no mistake many In the NDP have been determined to defend David Millers unfortunate legacy he left the City in upon departure

The Liberals likely could have proceeded or cancelled based on the voting climate and with the actual lack of real Scarborough support for the one-stop subway it would have easily been cancelled with any rise in costs.

(Sadly only) The Fords/Conservatives tapped into this disconnect and are very likely the only ones with a serious chance to deliver a proper subway line. And will likely be building not only the SSE , but also proceed with the DRL, Richmond Hills (locally supported) Yonge line and start designs on Sheppard/ further work on DRL long for two very key reasons. One being actual overwhelming local support in all these areas that will help keep him in power and the other being the vendetta to get back at the Left on Council which refused to work with him and his brother in a weak Mayor council and doesn't want him to succeed. I see no indication that he wants to be a one term government so shovels in the ground in Toronto are likely a very solid bet here.

The Citys Left media will try to create fear that these Conservatives are out to delay the lines substantially. Its already started and seems to be working on some in this forum. But just like the reporting on the project for the past years I have a feeling it will be proven as the same out of touch politically motivated fiction.

 

[sixrings]

Anyone who reads left media are zombies/David miller cult followers and can't think for themselves. Other LRT supporters must be part of a union or special interest group gaining. The few people who actually have the honour to talk to onecity/coffey in person in malvern represent the entire scarborough population. Finally OneCity made the mistake of moving from the city to malvern a decade ago making him not a happy person(close to the same time I moved from Scarborough to bathurst and eglinton making me a happy person). This is what I gathered from onecities post which he won't be able to read since he so brilliantly blocked me.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Some more.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...ing-more-uncertainty-for-ttc-riders-1.4984785

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Over a decade a ago I moved in the heart of Malvern. Oddly most neighbours/people I commuted to work with were convinced the subway was coming to Malvern or were very upset the City had not already connect the subway which was floated for decades. I heard zero support for the LRT and It wasn't just a few people and transit was a big topic of small talk discussion next to the weather. Yet oddly Id read the opposite view in the news and see their polls telling a far different story, our local Scarborough mirror (metroland) was a weekly LRT advertisement and promotion too for the inner City NDP. It all seemed as if LRT was being forced and was very strange non Scarborough centric reporting.

And low and behold the next election saw every relevant Mayoral candidate run vocally and directly against the LRT and a bull in a china shop, loud mouth candidate campaigning directly on tearing up the transit plan the people don't want. The Liberals were already backtracking on funding and construction starts well before election season and not long after the plan was overturned were soon self proclaimed "subway champions" themselves. Since the "debate" finally surfaced to the public the political support for the subway loop in Scarborough speaks for itself. Its 99% political support subway support from MPP's, MP's, councillors, all party leaders/runners up, and Mayors/runner ups in all the elections since. Even a few years later NDP councillor Shan was a very vocal advocate for the SSE in Malvern. Yet the Citys Left media and their polls still reported the debate contrary to what is now clearly overwhelming political Scarborough support.

So NO I don't believe the NDP the would have built the line. Horwath said the right thing this election to not stir the pot. But if you listen to the very pro LRT union groups and transit special interest groups directly connected to the NDP the message they were promoting was far different. Then we had a "Planner"/Politician who recommended stripping the stops was working on her own ambitions to get into politics for the Left. So there certainly looked like a lot of smoke here to set the stage on to cancel such an absurd one stop plan at 30%. Odd when push came to shove in the Mayoral race she also let her most polarized inner City base down by staying silent on derailing the SSE. Make no mistake many In the NDP have been determined to defend David Millers unfortunate legacy he left the City in upon departure

The Liberals likely could have proceeded or cancelled based on the voting climate and with the actual lack of real Scarborough support for the one-stop subway it would have easily been cancelled with any rise in costs.

(Sadly only) The Fords/Conservatives tapped into this disconnect and are very likely the only ones with a serious chance to deliver a proper subway line. And will likely be building not only the SSE , but also proceed with the DRL, Richmond Hills (locally supported) Yonge line and start designs on Sheppard/ further work on DRL long for two very key reasons. One being actual overwhelming local support in all these areas that will help keep him in power and the other being the vendetta to get back at the Left on Council which refused to work with him and his brother in a weak Mayor council and doesn't want him to succeed. I see no indication that he wants to be a one term government so shovels in the ground in Toronto are likely a very solid bet here.

The Citys Left media will try to create fear that these Conservatives are out to delay the lines substantially. Its already started and seems to be working on some in this forum. But just like the reporting on the project for the past years I have a feeling it will be proven as the same out of touch politically motivated fiction.

LRT/subway support is split 50/50, maybe slightly more in favour of the subway in scarborough. Not overwhelming, imo

 

[W. K. Lis]

LRT/subway support is split 50/50, maybe slightly more in favour of the subway in scarborough. Not overwhelming, imo

Of course, the ones who want a subway want a station less than a block away. They get upset that the low density in their area requires a w-i-d-e spacing of the stations.

 

[BurlOak]

Of course, the ones who want a subway want a station less than a block away. They get upset that the low density in their area requires a w-i-d-e spacing of the stations.

Those who want subways were perfectly happy with the fully grade-separated LRT. The one running from Mt. Dennis to STC (the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown). Unfortunately, the "LRT supporters" (who were actually just Transit City supporters trying to salvage David Millers legacy) refused to see that compromise through.