[JSF-1]

Those who want subways were perfectly happy with the fully grade-separated LRT

Hey now lets not forget thought that according to those same people anything less than a Subway was "Second-Class". Those people who wanted the Subway wanted it because it was sold not only as some fix all solution but as an ego boost. You can try an give them an LRT all you want but the discussion will always go back to "but Toronto", "muh Downtown Elites", But LRT would make us second class" and similar tripe like that. The people who wanted the Subway have hitched their wagons to it and have chosen to die on that hill. Not out of economic sensibility, nor planning and usage, but instead out of a silly us versus them mentality. This hole debate was and still is an exercise in the art of "Feels before Reals". We all know what the real facts are in regards to the whole Subway vs. LRT debate, but we can't let those pesky facts get in the way of our feelings now can we?

 

[BurlOak]

It really wasn't a Subway vs. LRT debate at the start. It started as a "Transfer" vs. "No Transfer" debate.

Let's face it, the average member of the public was not smart enough to know what they want. The pro Transfer people (with some knowledge) argued that if they make the new line as inconvenient as possible, then the number of transfers at Kennedy Station would be small enough that it could be accommodated. The anti-Transfer people (with some knowledge) argued that without a transfer there could be over 10k passengers per hour approaching Kennedy - which is about twice that who are currently using the SRT and more than who currently transfer from B-D to Yonge. The forcing of the transfer clearly keeps people off transit and in their cars - which should not be the goal of the new design. As the ink was drying on the Fords plan cancellation, the Liberals (their Scarborough MP's, the Premier and MTO Minister) were already planning the cancellation of the transfer LRT with a subway extension. The Liberals inexplicably won a majority in 2014, after the 2013 "subway champion" episode. The anti-Transfer group then realized with the power held by the Liberals, that the only non-transfer plan that could be accepted was a subway plan - that's when it became subways or nothing. Nobody has even tried to change plans since then - partly because any change without a transfer would just re-awaken the pro-Transfer group.

 

[steveintoronto]

Anyone who reads left media are zombies/David miller cult followers and can't think for themselves.

I read left, right and centre media. The worst part is when I try to defecate, it comes out every which way but up...I'm just so confused that I demonstrate against myself. "Stop me now! Stop me now!"....I got arrested the other day for disturbing my own piece...errr...peace. Bailed myself out on gut behaviour.
Signed: Me, Myself and I...

 

[steveintoronto]

The forcing of the transfer clearly keeps people off transit and in their cars - which should not be the goal of the new design.

Which clearly implies that the obvious answer is *RER*. not subway, not Segway, not flying carpets.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

That's largely true, but it should be noted that the future of transit in the Kennedy - STC corridor had received extensive media coverage in the past 10 years or so. That means, people who know exactly what they want might still make a minority of all residents, but that minority is larger than in case of other transit projects that aren't in the spotlight.

I'll tell you, from talking to members of the public, you'll be surprised how little they know. A non-negligible portion of the public doesn't even know where this project is proposed to run, let alone any specifics. The portion of the public that has a meaningful understanding of the ridership of this project, its border impacts on the network (such as the removal of Lawrence East) and other details, I wager, is less than 10%.

 

[11th]

Hey now lets not forget thought that according to those same people anything less than a Subway was "Second-Class". Those people who wanted the Subway wanted it because it was sold not only as some fix all solution but as an ego boost. You can try an give them an LRT all you want but the discussion will always go back to "but Toronto", "muh Downtown Elites", But LRT would make us second class" and similar tripe like that. The people who wanted the Subway have hitched their wagons to it and have chosen to die on that hill. Not out of economic sensibility, nor planning and usage, but instead out of a silly us versus them mentality. This hole debate was and still is an exercise in the art of "Feels before Reals". We all know what the real facts are in regards to the whole Subway vs. LRT debate, but we can't let those pesky facts get in the way of our feelings now can we?

I was thinking. If Crosstown was connected with the SRT route, the whole route would be grade-separated. They can then use high-floor vehicles, and the line could be marketed as a "subway". It would probably have cost less than the current mess of a plan.

 

[JSF-1]

I'll tell you, from talking to members of the public, you'll be surprised how little they know. A non-negligible portion of the public doesn't even know where this project is proposed to run, let alone any specifics. The portion of the public that has a meaningful understanding of the ridership of this project, its border impacts on the network (such as the removal of Lawrence East) and other details, I wager, is less than 10%.

This is true. I can guarantee that not only do the majority of people in this neck of the woods not know about the project, most don't care. The majority of Scarberians will take anything be it Subway, LRT, or an upgraded SRT. The technology used doesn't matter. While a small minority will complain; the vast majority of those who use the new line whatever it may be will go about there day as normal.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Some more.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...ing-more-uncertainty-for-ttc-riders-1.4984785

The number of stations along the proposed Scarborough subway route? Unknown. The cost? Unknown. A firm opening date? Unknown. The primary funding source — the share covered by the provincial or municipal government, and also whether the private sector will be expected to contribute? You guessed it — unknown.

When it's put that way, this whole thing is just pathetic

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Which clearly implies that the obvious answer is *RER*. not subway, not Segway, not flying carpets.

And expanded and extended SRT, with branches going to Steeles (via Stouffville Line), Malvern Centre and UTSC, with RER taking people downtown, would be ideal.

 

[JSF-1]

I was thinking. If Crosstown was connected with the SRT route, the whole route would be grade-separated.

At one time this was on the table however the grade separation bit was a point of contention, specifically between Laird and Kennedy.

 

[Rainforest]

I'll tell you, from talking to members of the public, you'll be surprised how little they know. A non-negligible portion of the public doesn't even know where this project is proposed to run, let alone any specifics. The portion of the public that has a meaningful understanding of the ridership of this project, its border impacts on the network (such as the removal of Lawrence East) and other details, I wager, is less than 10%.

That's unfortunate. It is never possible to educate 100% or 80% of the public, but I expected that 20% to 30% of the residents would be familiar with the options on the table by now, given the amount of media coverage this corridor received.

 

[Rainforest]

(Sadly only) The Fords/Conservatives tapped into this disconnect and are very likely the only ones with a serious chance to deliver a proper subway line. And will likely be building not only the SSE , but also proceed with the DRL, Richmond Hills (locally supported) Yonge line and start designs on Sheppard/ further work on DRL long for two very key reasons. One being actual overwhelming local support in all these areas that will help keep him in power and the other being the vendetta to get back at the Left on Council which refused to work with him and his brother in a weak Mayor council and doesn't want him to succeed.

I'm not happy to rain on your parade, but I'm pretty sure that no subway construction on that scale will happen during Doug Ford's first term, nor during his second term. The amount of funding needed for that would be totally at odds with his tax-cutting agenda. Some contributions from private investors can be expected, but they wouldn't cover more than 10 to 30% of the cost (based on the Chong's Sheppard Subway report).

I still hope they will begin construction of SSE, and I'd say there is a 50% chance that they will commence one more subway project (could be either DRL or Yonge North). Certainly not 3 or 4 subway projects.

I see no indication that he wants to be a one term government so shovels in the ground in Toronto are likely a very solid bet here.

The only project from the list that might affect his re-election chances is SSE; failing to advance a line that has been nearly shovel-ready would cast big doubts over his skills as an administrator.

DRL area residents will never elect a Conservative MPP. Certain business groups are lobbying for DRL and Ford probably can't afford to ignore them completely, thus some drag in the right direction does exist. We'll see if it will be sufficient to initiate the actions.

Regarding Yonge North, the residents certainly want the subway and will support a party that can deliver it , but the competing parties won't be in the position to offer them guaranteed subway, because of the City's opposition to building Yonge North before DRL. Thus, Conservatives will look no worse than their main competitors if they don't advance this project.

 

[OneCity]

That's unfortunate. It is never possible to educate 100% or 80% of the public, but I expected that 20% to 30% of the residents would be familiar with the options on the table by now, given the amount of media coverage this corridor received.

Most people are disgusted with politics to begin with. As far as information about a specific project there was never a shortage of this "expert" driven LRT propaganda in the Scarborough/Toronto news. It been unlike any other infrastructure project weve seen and they fought to the bitter end to force what was pretty much a vanity local transit project in when most of Scarborough has very good local transit already (as seen in the travel patterns sadly being used to justify the opposite narrative). Improved connections from main areas of Scarborough with both subway and RER is what was really mandatory in a providing a useful transit network in this area. We wasted a lot of time ignoring these connections completely with narrow Transit City ideology.

The one thing that impressed me the most moving from the 905 to Malvern was the coverage and frequency of the local TTC bus system. It was so much better than anything I was used to. Sure minor improvements are always needed for local travel but it was never even close to the priority. To be ripping up roads, removing vehicle lanes in large areas on main arterials to implement this. Are you kidding me? C'mon. I'm all for BRT/LRT where really necessary and if improved connectivity in the City was built first to fulfil a useful network for various lifestyles which our inner suburbs require. It wasn't.

I was thinking. If Crosstown was connected with the SRT route, the whole route would be grade-separated. They can then use high-floor vehicles, and the line could be marketed as a "subway". It would probably have cost less than the current mess of a plan.

Rob Ford and McGuinty agreed to move this recommendation forward with agreement to start the design for the Sheppard subway Council overruled this this great compromise and we went back to Transit City shortly until closer to election time where the Liberals worked with Stintz to fuel their own ambitions, with zero sincerity as the dysfunctional council and politically ambitious planner began the fillet job. Either this or a BDL extension on this corridor would have been a big improvement in connectivity of the Centre and NE Scarborough

Pretty sure the Sheppard design will be resurrected shortly and the subway design will be fixed to deliver something very effective until Sheppard is fully connected. to SCC in the future. Until then the fear mongering will continue from the same LRT promoters trying to blame Ford for working us out of the one stop absurdity we were left with and turn it into something connected and effective for all lifestyles of people within Scarborough

 

[OneCity]

I'm not happy to rain on your parade, but I'm pretty sure that no subway construction on that scale will happen during Doug Ford's first term, nor during his second term. The amount of funding needed for that would be totally at odds with his tax-cutting agenda. Some contributions from private investors can be expected, but they wouldn't cover more than 10 to 30% of the cost (based on the Chong's Sheppard Subway report).

I still hope they will begin construction of SSE, and I'd say there is a 50% chance that they will commence one more subway project (could be either DRL or Yonge North). Certainly not 3 or 4 subway projects.
.

The project(s) are going to be financed, something the City could never do and they had little support from upper levels in previous decades. So long as the design funds come in for the SSE it will be moving forward. The Federal Government is at the table and we are at a critical path for multiple areas of the transit network.

The Ford Government is picking its targets for better and indeed some worse. GTA transit infrastructure is a big focal point for them. We can both speculate but nothing has changed progress since election and until I see the SSE design being unfunded there is no doubt it will be built in due course to add the stops. It can be phased and hardly a major change to add a box on Lawrence within phase 1 with minimal design delay. The support from every relevant politician is overwhelming, the RT is on its last legs, and its the biggest transit promise the majority Ford Government has made for Toronto. There is little merit to the current fear mongering going on aside from the usual pro LRT pot stirrers making hay over announcement to work with the private sector that will have zero delay on actual progress.

No bubble to burst as until we see real intentional design delay its all anti-Ford/Conservative speculative theories.

 

[APTA-2048]

To be ripping up roads, removing vehicle lanes in large areas on main arterials to implement this.

Where would have this occurred on the SRT to LRT conversion route?