[Kyle Campbell]

Not at all.

The serious poltical paralysis hampering this line pretty much ended once the decision was removed from toxic outside presence on City council.

The subway support is quite overwhelming from all relevant leaders and almost all Scarborough Polticians at all levels and parties.

It's a matter of fixing the design from the mess council left and moving on. There is no relevant appetite to overturn outside of the City

Although the tantrum will continue. But that's all it can be now

Well no, the problem with the paralysis is that it stalled the process long enough that even if they started digging today it can't be done before the SRT has to shut down. Hence buses are coming.

 

[nfitz]

The serious poltical paralysis hampering this line pretty much ended once the decision was removed from toxic outside presence on City council.

What toxic presence?

The only toxic presence I've seen is toxic-substance abusing Rob Ford, and corrupt Doug Ford. You are relatively new here, they were both councillor before your time.

The province has now taken over the line, but delayed it for years, with all it's huge cuts to transit.

 

[syn]

No one can ever appease the naysayers it seems. A one-stop subway proposal is problematic, Ford forges ahead with 3 stops instead : the pitchfork and torches mob complains. DRL ought to be the #1 priority, Ford agrees and even includes components of phases 2 and 3 in his Phase One : more dissention and backlash. This is precisely why the City cannot have nice things, we obsess to death about timelines and not the end result.

Delaying plans for years is 'forging ahead'?

The Fords have Scarborough wrapped around their little finger.

 

[JSF-1]

Either as a band aid solution, or in conjunction with a whole new way of thinking. The only way this could happen is if someone asked - is there a better way of achieving the same goals for less money. We are still living in the world created in 2013 by the Liberals, where it's either subway or transfer LRT. I can only hope that someone opens their eyes to something better

#3 can't be a band aid solution since using Mk.III trains would require all the stations except maybe STC being extended and a new platform being built at Kennedy since they can't use the current one. That's not a band-aid solution, its a permanent one.

 

[nfitz]

#3 can't be a band aid solution since using Mk.III trains would require all the stations except maybe STC being extended and a new platform being built at Kennedy since they can't use the current one. That's not a band-aid solution, its a permanent one.

You could used 2-car MK IIII trains, which would be almost as long as 3 of the current cars, and run them twice as often - which would actually increase capacity. I suspect, that if you ordered them that way from day one, you could probably put together 3-car Mark III trainsets, that would be the same length as the current trains.

The bigger issue is the curve/tunnel from Ellesmere to Midland. Though the original TTC plan (way back early in this thread) was that they could renew and upgrade the current line for Mark III, including longer platforms at all six stations for only $190 million.

Alternatively, nothing precludes TTC from issuing an RFQ or even an RFP for more cars that could run on the current line, without any modifications. (well I guess the Ontario Government now precludes working on this line at all ... but assuming that everyone agrees to do something for the decade or two until Line 2 is extended).

 

[JSF-1]

You could used 2-car MK IIII trains, which would be almost as long as 3 of the current cars, and run them twice as often - which would actually increase capacity. I suspect, that if you ordered them that way from day one, you could probably put together 3-car Mark III trainsets, that would be the same length as the current trains.

The bigger issue is the curve/tunnel from Ellesmere to Midland. Though the original TTC plan (way back early in this thread) was that they could renew and upgrade the current line for Mark III, including longer platforms at all six stations for only $190 million.

Alternatively, nothing precludes TTC from issuing an RFQ or even an RFP for more cars that could run on the current line, without any modifications. (well I guess the Ontario Government now precludes working on this line at all ... but assuming that everyone agrees to do something for the decade or two until Line 2 is extended).

Even with 2 car trains we would still need a new platform for Kennedy since just like the curve at Ellesmere, the curve at Kennedy is to tight for the Mk.III trains. The only other option as you said would be to track down a compatible train type that also adheres to the SRT's specs. Does such a train still even exist?

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Even with 2 car trains we would still need a new platform for Kennedy since just like the curve at Ellesmere, the curve at Kennedy is to tight for the Mk.III trains. The only other option as you said would be to track down a compatible train type that also adheres to the SRT's specs. Does such a train still even exist?

Just the Mark Is in Vancouver, which are at least somewhat newer than the RTs ones

 

[nfitz]

Even with 2 car trains we would still need a new platform for Kennedy since just like the curve at Ellesmere, the curve at Kennedy is to tight for the Mk.III trains.

In the TTC report outlining this plan, the $190 million included the cost of reconstruction of the Kennedy curve approach to the station for the new longer cars. It was only the rejected $256 million plan that moved the Kennedy terminal.

The only other option as you said would be to track down a compatible train type that also adheres to the SRT's specs. Does such a train still even exist?

Yes (or at least it was when we started this thread. The 2006 report called the shortened car, a "Mark IIA" car. While it reduced construction costs by $20 million, they estimated it would add $90 million to the vehicle costs, because of the specialized nature, which is why the didn't recommend it. However, the goal of the report was to increase capacity, not maintain the current capacity. In the meantime, ridership has dropped considerably over the last few years.

Recall that most of the $190 million was for extending the platforms of 5 of the 6 stations. The modifications to handle the longer cars, were relative minor in comparison - despite the comments in this thread over the years.

 

[Hopkins123]

The naysaying is because his plans are bullshit. These are just clearly moves to appease the electorate without having to spend any $$$. The DRL, and SSE especially, haven’t been handled with any sense of urgency; it’s been a year since we’ve seen any progress on the SSE, while SRT is a ticking time bomb. But please come back in 3 years and tell me I was wrong.

You're just proving my point. This obsession with the timeline is getting us nowhere. It's worth waiting an additional four years, according to the current projection, if it means more stops. Plus now the City as a whole is projected to get a DRL with at least 15 stops whereas before it was just an 8 stop one at half the length. Sheppard subway is being talked about again and I cannot see Bloor-Danforth West not becoming a priority soon too given Etobicoke is Ford's home turf and his government thus far's chummy with Mississauga. Crosstown West will also now be fully grade-separated meaning, ironically, it's Scarborough that'll be stuck with the subpar at-grade section in perpetuity and the slower travel speeds that'll entail. It's a blueprint, and something we can hold the Ford gov't accountable for going forward if indeed nothing happens in the next 4-8 years.

But "appease the electorate" to me means that they're actually listening to the electorate, for once, after 15 years of malaise and dictatorial top-down take-it-or-leave-it type of governance too many Torontonians here seem to have come to expect.

 

[syn]

You're just proving my point. This obsession with the timeline is getting us nowhere. It's worth waiting an additional four years, according to the current projection, if it means more stops. Plus now the City as a whole is projected to get a DRL with at least 15 stops whereas before it was just an 8 stop one at half the length. Sheppard subway is being talked about again and I cannot see Bloor-Danforth West not becoming a priority soon too given Etobicoke is Ford's home turf and his government thus far's chummy with Mississauga. Crosstown West will also now be fully grade-separated meaning, ironically, it's Scarborough that'll be stuck with the subpar at-grade section in perpetuity and the slower travel speeds that'll entail. It's a blueprint, and something we can hold the Ford gov't accountable for going forward if indeed nothing happens in the next 4-8 years.

But "appease the electorate" to me means that they're actually listening to the electorate, for once, after 15 years of malaise and dictatorial top-down take-it-or-leave-it type of governance too many Torontonians here seem to have come to expect.

You mean like cutting Toronto City Council in half against the city's wishes/best interests, without any consultation?

Perhaps you're referring to forcing a new planning strategy on the city, without any consultation?

Or how about uploading the TTC, again, without consultation?

It's amazing that you buy everything that Ford is selling.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

You're just proving my point. This obsession with the timeline is getting us nowhere

Are we supposed to ignore the fact that the SRT is gonna implode in 4 years? Well, if it even lasts that long. TTC is already running the SRT without spares, and the vehicles themselves are precipitously close to structural failure (the vehicles are literally splitting in half and critical systems are being held together by duct tape, last I heard). The thing is already barely operational in the winter.

You better pray the SRT life extension goes a lot better than the recent ALRV extension. I for one say we should move forward assuming the worst (meaning no SRT in T-minus 4 years)

Plus now the City as a whole is projected to get a DRL with at least 15 stops whereas before it was just an 8 stop one at half the length. Sheppard subway is being talked about again and I cannot see Bloor-Danforth West not becoming a priority soon too given Etobicoke is Ford's home turf and his government thus far's chummy with Mississauga. Crosstown West will also now be fully grade-separated

I’d admire your enduring optimism. I for one would put money down on precisely none of that happening.

 

[BurlOak]

#3 can't be a band aid solution since using Mk.III trains would require all the stations except maybe STC being extended and a new platform being built at Kennedy since they can't use the current one. That's not a band-aid solution, its a permanent one.

Your right.
I guess I was partially responding to this post without acknowledging it.

Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

My money's on #3. And I think the pieces are falling in place for it. Would they actually do that, or would it be more likely they make a deal with TransLink to buy some of their old Mark I's. Buying brand new trains means the SRT would continue as is for the foreseeable future, which doesn't...

urbantoronto.ca

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Hopefully, #1, but the fallback would be #3 (could be Mk-III, or old Mk-I from Vancouver).

Should we even assume the Mk. 1’s are for sale? Unless TransLink has a replacement ready for revenue service, they’d almost certainly not sell them.

 

[syn]

Are we supposed to ignore the fact that the SRT is gonna implode in 4 years? Well, if it even lasts that long. TTC is already running the SRT without spares, and the vehicles themselves are precipitously close to structural failure (the vehicles are literally splitting in half and critical systems are being held together by duct tape, last I heard). The thing is already barely operational in the winter.

You better pray the SRT life extension goes a lot better than the recent ALRV extension. I for one say we should move forward assuming the worst (meaning no SRT in T-minus 4 years)



I’d admire your enduring optimism. I for one would put money down on precisely none of that happening.

It's interesting - before Ford unveiled his plan, the narrative was that time was of the essence.

Now we're being told that time doesn't matter.

Funny how quickly things change.

 

[JSF-1]

Should we even assume the Mk. 1’s are for sale? Unless TransLink has a replacement ready for revenue service, they’d almost certainly not sell them.

Even if Vancouver wants to part ways with there Mk.I's we still need to contend with either we run them automatic, or we pair them with the ones we have, the same ones which are falling apart. That doesn't exactly solve the problem. As well we would only be able to pick up something like 28 cars (7 4-Car trains) since that is all the capacity McCowan has so nothing changes from a capacity stand point either. It only makes sense as a stop gap solution and this will ultimatly be determined by the timeline. If the SSE is under construction then you can possibly make the case. However the SSE still hasn't began construction then cutting our losses and upgrading to the Mk.III trains becomes far more appealing then just using Mk.I trains from Vancouver for a decade.