innsertnamehere
Superstar
^exactly.
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denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
I would think Vaughan would take full advantage of the subway. But who knows.
Solid Snake
Active Member
That extension should not have happened past Steeles
Out of all the suburban subway extensions (with exception perhaps to the North Yonge extension), the Bloor-Danforth extension in Scarborough is probably the best bet for breaking even and having the ridership to justify it.
And yes, it actually does make the Sheppard East LRT useful. Ironically though, it also makes it even more of an overkill than it already was, because having the subway intercept it roughly mid-route will significantly lower the peak point ridership, because you will have people from east of McCowan getting off at McCowan instead of continuing westward to Don Mills like they would have under the initial Transit City scenario.
Under the original Transit City the SELRT had a pphpd of 3,100. With the Scarborough Subway to Sheppard & McCowan in place, I doubt the peak point ridership will get over 2,500, maybe even 2,000. Heck, you're likely to even see people who live at Kennedy & Sheppard travelling eastward in the AM peak to access the subway, instead of travelling westward to Don Mills. The SELRT may end up carrying more total riders as a result of the subway extension, but there's going to be a lot more counter-flow and the passenger load is going to be much more evenly distributed across the line.
Solid Snake
Active Member
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I've been saying that for a while and completely agree, but probably haven't said it as clearly. SELRT ridership will probably be around 2,500 peak. I still support it however as it kills the Sheppard subway for good, and that alone is worth the extra couple hundred million.
Solid Snake
Active Member
nfitz
Superstar
The peak point on the Sheppard East LRT was westbound, just entering Don Mills station. I doubt that peak would change much. Instead, I think you'd simply increase the Sheppard East ridership further east, with AM peak flows heading to McCowan from both directions.
EnviroTO
Senior Member
I disagree. If you had said York U station I could agree with you but Steeles is completely arbitrary. All GO routes lead to Union, that makes sense. Most Mississauga bus routes converge on their city centre, that makes sense. Toronto's subways (except the Sheppard mistake) head downtown, that makes sense. Steeles West is nothing, not a designated centre on the GTA "Places to Grow" list, not a hub of activity, nothing. Stopping at Steeles would be replicating everything that is wrong with the Bloor line stopping at Kenendy. Kennedy is a nowhere in the grand scheme of city development plans.
Subways with their capacity should connect downtown to suburban cores along a path that will generate the greatest ridership. Suburban cores should be connected by BRT or LRT until the cores become major employment centres and push demand along the route to levels that require a subway. On the Spadina line the natural stopping points are the University which is a significant trip generator, or Vaughan Centre which is to become a suburban core. On the Yonge line the natural stopping point is where it is (part of North York Centre) or to go to Richmond Hill Centre. On the Bloor line the natural stopping point is where it is (Etobicoke Centre) or Mississauga Centre. On the Danforth line the natural stopping point is Scarborough Centre.
Mass transit should attempt to always stop at a location where there a significant ridership generator, or there is a plan to focus developments on that location which generate significant ridership. Why? Because those are the places you want to have transit converging to assist in making that a place people will be as a result of it being a transportation hub, and will want to be due to the great connections that location provides. In builds the incentive for that location being the designated "Place to Grow" that it is supposed to be. Extending the Spadina line to Steeles means that when an office building is built in Vaughan Centre they will need to take a bus and then transfer to get anywhere southward. That should not be the experience coming out of a suburban hub. Similarly I think the Danforth subway extension should end at Scarborough Centre, the Durham BRT should end at Scarborough Centre, and the Sheppard East LRT from Don Mills should end at Scarborough Centre via McCowan. Sheppard East further east should be served by an LRT or BRT route radiating from Scarborough Centre. The additional one stop extension to Sheppard means that Scarborough Centre developments would need to take a transfer to get to all places north. That is counter productive to the development of Scarborough Centre as a core.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Agreed 100 percent
I think it would reduce the peak flow entering Don Mills, because under the original Transit City a lot of those riders will be coming from east of McCowan, and certainly east of Kennedy. Under the current scenario, those riders will be getting off at Sheppard & McCowan instead of riding to Don Mills. That would see a noticeable decline in the peak period ridership entering Don Mills.
Solid Snake
Active Member
My understanding was that York University no longer wanted buses within their campus. That was the point of going further and it makes sense. All the GO, Peel and York Region would go to Steeles and stay out of the campus to drastically reduce traffic in the area. Steeles West (unless I'm mistaken) is providing access to other York University buildings.
Vaughan at that point could have built an LRT to Steeles West. Subway is overkill in that area as of today and in the next 10 years.
Solid Snake
Active Member
Hence BRT being more than enough and the remaining hundreds of millions remaining would be better served at connecting the Finch LRT to Yonge or upgrade Eglinton's grade separation/reliability
salsa
Senior Member
Some of those buses will also use Hwy 407 station.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
VCC will be a failure and in 15 years the Star will be writing articles about what happend
Agreed 100 percent. Now Richmond Hill wants one, and if you look at the map it makes sense sadly.