[denfromoakvillemilton]

No one was calling for a subway stop on Sheppard East until De Baeremaeker pulled out his napkin map.

To be fair, it does solve a lot of connectivity issues. A subway that stops at STC with a ~1km gap between the terminus and the Sheppard East LRT makes for a pretty messed up transit situation. At the very least, the subway extension to Sheppard bolsters the case for the SELRT being there. The other option is running a branch down to STC, which would partially solve it, but would complicate SELRT operations.

Glenn wants both Scarborough subways built, his counter to the gap will be to built the other subway. Because as gweed said, it would complicate operations to do that the LRT and lower frequencies. IMO, no LRT being built should have lower frequencies then the Queen Streetcar.

 

[BurlOak]

Then fun began when someone finally stood up, and started on about the LRT. Started accusing Laspa over something he has no control over, and asks a loaded question that De Baermaeker eventually answers for him, as it was something related to council involvement and why council themselves weren't designing a $3 billion dollar subway line.

It seems that the strategy for the LRT supporters is to delay transit for 4 years and hope that Tory and Wynne lose their next elections. I doubt they are hoping for Ford and the PC's to win the next election though.

If they really want to save the City some money from the current subway proposal, they need to find a compromise that will allow Wynne and Tory to save face from their promises.

 

[junctionist]

It's one thing to debate the merits of a different proposals; it's another to try to screw up something that's funded and in planning or construction. If we want a city with an excellent transit system and less congestion, we have to build. We have to build the projects that our elected predecessors got funded. It doesn't matter whether or not it's the perfect proposal in terms of cost and performance. We just have to build and learn from any mistakes we make.

 

[BurlOak]

It's one thing to debate the merits of a different proposals; it's another to try to screw up something that's funded and in planning or construction. If we want a city with an excellent transit system and less congestion, we have to build. We have to build the projects that our elected predecessors got funded. It doesn't matter whether or not it's the perfect proposal in terms of cost and performance. We just have to build and learn from any mistakes we make.

I would expect that the new government would want to make their mark on the project by making a modification to satisfy their electorate. But it seems that instead of arriving towards a consensus, we are actually swinging more wildly towards the extremes.

 

[Rainforest]

With very different capital investments, and I realize Scarborough transit at this point is about purchasing happy feelings and not actually moving the most people for our budget.

For an actual business case, it would have been interesting to take $3B and compare an equal investment in BRT, LRT, and subway. Subway to Sheppard, LRT to Steeles (roughly), and perhaps 3 new BRT corridors which merge at SCC and run in a grade separated ROW to Kennedy.

The subway option would lose, no doubts.

However, politically there is no such thing as taking $3B and spending them on transit in Scarborough. Scarberians can have their subway built, and still hope that LRT lines connecting to that subway will be added in the near future.

Conversely, they can turn down the subway but that does not give them any guarantees that the remaining funds will be used in Scarborough, or used for transit at all.

 

[minilude]

how can we, as voters, to kill the subway? It is totally waste of money and time of the politicians..are they dumbasses having nothing else better to do rather than spending time on debate at every other council meetings?

 

[innsertnamehere]

you can't. Not until 2018, at least, at which point the subway will be under construction and it would be sheer stupidity to cancel it.

People voted, and they elected politicians to proceed on the subway. So they are proceeding with the subway.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

how can we, as voters, to kill the subway? It is totally waste of money and time of the politicians..are they dumbasses having nothing else better to do rather than spending time on debate at every other council meetings?

There will need to be multiple more votes before the project is shovel ready. These votes wil be opportunities for council to cancel the project. Remember, the extension was within two votes of being canceled last time.

In particular, the SmartTrack study should be rather damning for the subway extension.

 

[gweed123]

There will need to be multiple more votes before the project is shovel ready. These votes wil be opportunities for council to cancel the project.

In particular, the SmartTrack study should be rather damning for the subway extension.

Exactly. Remember, the subway only passed by a narrow margin 16 months ago. It's quite possible that, given new information on the project timeline and cost, some of those pro-subway votes may vote against it. In that case, the subway is dead, and the Master Agreement (which was never actually cancelled) comes back into effect, which means LRT.

If that does become the case, I sincerely hope that Tory, being the slick politician that he is, puts forward a motion to study a "SmartTrack Spur" for Scarborough. It would technically be keeping with his promise to support the "Scarborough Subway", since throughout his entire campaign he had been branding SmartTrack as a "surface subway".

 

[rbt]

Exactly. Remember, the subway only passed by a narrow margin 16 months ago. It's quite possible that, given new information on the project timeline and cost, some of those pro-subway votes may vote against it. In that case, the subway is dead, and the Master Agreement (which was never actually cancelled) comes back into effect, which means LRT.

Several of the pro-subway people were replaced (Doug and Stintz being obvious ones). A vote today with exactly the same information as was available then may have a different result.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Several of the pro-subway people were replaced (Doug and Stintz being obvious ones). A vote today with exactly the same information as was available then may have a different result.

many councillors have also switched to the "we made the decision, even though I disagreed, lets just get it done" position as of late too. I feel if there was a vote for it the vote would come out much more in favor of the subway than the original vote in october of 2013.

Besides, There would be serious political fallout from Tory if the plan were to be reversed.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Besides, There would be serious political fallout from Tory if the plan were to be reversed.

And how will he deal with the political fallout:

"Scarborough, you're getting SmartTrack. It's 2 km east of the planned subway, is billions of dollars cheaper and gets you downtown just as fast, if not faster" - John Tory

 

[innsertnamehere]

"you voted against scarborough subway, good luck getting on an executive committee of any sort or getting support by me for any of your motions"

 

[aquateam]

Several of the pro-subway people were replaced (Doug and Stintz being obvious ones). A vote today with exactly the same information as was available then may have a different result.

If you had asked me a year ago I would have been absolutely sure that the LRT would be chosen at this point, because of Doug and Stintz being replaced (and Olivia looked like the winner). At this point I'm pretty sure the subway is guaranteed since:
-Although Doug and Stintz are gone, they've been replaced with equally pro-subway councillors. Stintz's replacement is even more pro-subway than she was
-Other pro-subway councillors were elected (Karygiannis) and pro-LRT defeated (Parker)
-"SmartTrack" is supposed to travel through the same LRT corridor and there isn't room for both of them at the stations.
-debate fatigue has fallen in and, after Tory's win, believe that for better or for worse the subway is a done deal

My preference would have been LRT, but at this point, in the context of SmartTrack, I think a subway is reasonable. And it's hardly the worst transit decision the city has made, at least there's proven transit demand from STC.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Well it's a good thing the title of this thread is 'replacement of the RT', without reference to LRT or subway.

Part of me expects this to keep going on for a few more years, why stop arguing about it now? I actually think it's Tory's first big leadership test. RoFo/DoFo would have just shouted at everyone for not supporting a subway, and risked another council rebellion. Despite all the LRT pros that we've listed here, I think Tory will try to craft some kind of argument for why the city should push forward with a subway. And do it in a mature, diplomatic matter.