[pman]

This is the way to go once the SSE and phase 1 of the DRL are implemented. These two biggies need to get in and then the rest can be done over a phased approach by adding 1-2 stops per year as you said. Sounds so simple, yet in Toronto something like this is anything but.

If Toronto ever implements continuous phased construction, we can expect the Scarborough subway to eventually run to Peterborough, to support the exciting employment and urbanization prospects in the hub of the Kawarthas.

 

[Filip]

Well, for one, this isn't western Europe.

Second, to the best of my knowledge, the only North American city currently engaged in constructing a subway line anywhere near what would be considered "downtown" would be New York. The vast majority of the other lines seem to be being built in the suburbs (much like the B-D extension to Scarborough Town Centre), and thus that will change the economics and costing of the line.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Yes.. We are Toronto, a completely unique microcosm of just about anything, to the point that leveraging best practices from other developed countries is just impossible.

We don't have $400MM per km to build the DRL, therefore, let's find ways of lowering that cost.

 

[gweed123]

Well, for one, this isn't western Europe.

Second, to the best of my knowledge, the only North American city currently engaged in constructing a subway line anywhere near what would be considered "downtown" would be New York. The vast majority of the other lines seem to be being built in the suburbs (much like the B-D extension to Scarborough Town Centre), and thus that will change the economics and costing of the line.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

San Francisco is building the new Transbay Terminal, which involves approach tunnels for CalTrain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center). They're also building the Central Subway, which will extend the T Line from it's current terminus, under downtown and up into Chinatown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway).

They have projected price tags of $4.5 billion and $1.578 billion (2.74 km). That works out to $576 million/km ($USD) for the Central Subway.

 

[smallspy]

Yes.. We are Toronto, a completely unique microcosm of just about anything, to the point that leveraging best practices from other developed countries is just impossible.

Bad news for you - we are.

No other location in the world has our combination of tax and regulatory structure, cost-of-living, manpower requirements, geology, built form, etc.

And this isn't meant to make Toronto seem like an outlier - every single city on the planet is different from everywhere else for exactly those same set of reasons.

Now, while that doesn't mean that we can't look to see what is done elsewhere, it does mean that we can't just lift whole methods and techniques wholesale, and it does make comparisons and contrasts a bit more difficult.

I guess if there's one thing to take away from this, it's that at least it doesn't cost as much to build here as it does in London or New York.

San Francisco is building the new Transbay Terminal, which involves approach tunnels for CalTrain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center). They're also building the Central Subway, which will extend the T Line from it's current terminus, under downtown and up into Chinatown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway).

They have projected price tags of $4.5 billion and $1.578 billion (2.74 km). That works out to $576 million/km ($USD) for the Central Subway.

Ack, totally forgot about San Fransisco. My apologies, and thanks for the maths.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I can't wait to ride the full DRL on my deathbed! I wonder if they'd allow my gurney on the train?

Sorry, upping the accessibility standards to allow for that will pretty much ensure it won't be ready prior to umm, your passing.

San Francisco is building the new Transbay Terminal, which involves approach tunnels for CalTrain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center). They're also building the Central Subway, which will extend the T Line from it's current terminus, under downtown and up into Chinatown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway).

They have projected price tags of $4.5 billion and $1.578 billion (2.74 km). That works out to $576 million/km ($USD) for the Central Subway.

I wonder how much of a premium the seismic requirements imposes on the cost in SF.

AoD

 

[Filip]

Bad news for you - we are.

No other location in the world has our combination of tax and regulatory structure, cost-of-living, manpower requirements, geology, built form, etc.

And this isn't meant to make Toronto seem like an outlier - every single city on the planet is different from everywhere else for exactly those same set of reasons.

Now, while that doesn't mean that we can't look to see what is done elsewhere, it does mean that we can't just lift whole methods and techniques wholesale, and it does make comparisons and contrasts a bit more difficult.

I guess if there's one thing to take away from this, it's that at least it doesn't cost as much to build here as it does in London or New York.



Ack, totally forgot about San Fransisco. My apologies, and thanks for the maths.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Yes, our unique water table is difficult to manage - especially when the soil beneath the city is extremely good for tunneling.

Point is, a lot of what you said is regulatory... The government can either change the laws in order to pay less for infrastructure, or let costs continue to spiral out of control. This is simple cost management in the end. The TTC or Metrolinx is not in the business to create 'great' jobs, their role is to provide infrastructure at a reasonable cost. We should be able to leverage manpower from overseas, and in the process, lower our domestic costs. Who doesn't like competition?

 

[Edward Skira]

Los Angeles has started construction on a extension of the Purple line subway. Not downtown but close.

 

[innsertnamehere]

LA has the regional connector too.. Its an LRT tunnel, but it runs right through their downtown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Connector_Transit_Corridor

Ottawa's LRT also can't be forgotten, its so close to us.

Toronto is building their metro lines cheaper than anywhere else in North America right now from my understanding.. $400 million per km is fairly cheap. Montreal is typically cheaper, but they manage that because of their single bore tunnel method.

 

[kEiThZ]

San Francisco is building the new Transbay Terminal, which involves approach tunnels for CalTrain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transbay_Transit_Center). They're also building the Central Subway, which will extend the T Line from it's current terminus, under downtown and up into Chinatown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Subway).

They have projected price tags of $4.5 billion and $1.578 billion (2.74 km). That works out to $576 million/km ($USD) for the Central Subway.

Those areas are a lot more urban and older. More akin to the DRL than the suburban construction for the SSE. SF is also much more expensive to build in than Toronto.

 

[ILuvTO]

If Toronto ever implements continuous phased construction, we can expect the Scarborough subway to eventually run to Peterborough, to support the exciting employment and urbanization prospects in the hub of the Kawarthas.

I was thinking more along the lines of extending the Yonge line to Hwy 7, finishing Sheppard to STC, and also completing the DRL so that it connects to BD in the west. But if you want to be snarky for no reason, please continue. And nowhere did I say building 1-2 stops would continue forever.

Have a wonderful day.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

the full DRL on my deathbed! I wonder if they'd allow my gurney on the train?

I don't trust this city to ever be able to keep a continuous subway building regiment.

We would be able to do that if we implemented a sales tax of 1% or less. Of course that will never happen.

 

[gweed123]

Ack, totally forgot about San Fransisco. My apologies, and thanks for the maths.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

No worries!

I wonder how much of a premium the seismic requirements imposes on the cost in SF.

AoD

Good question. I would assume it would be about the same as LA or Vancouver, since they're in the same type of seismically active zone.

Those areas are a lot more urban and older. More akin to the DRL than the suburban construction for the SSE. SF is also much more expensive to build in than Toronto.

More urban than Downtown Toronto? I'd put them at about the same. Not Manhattan, but certainly not the suburbs either.

 

[LNahid2000]

More urban than Downtown Toronto? I'd put them at about the same. Not Manhattan, but certainly not the suburbs either.

San Francisco's Central Subway will go through their financial district and Chinatown. It felt more dense to me than downtown Toronto for sure when I was there last April.

According to the San Francisco Planning Department, Chinatown is "the most densely populated urban area west of Manhattan", with 15,000 residents living in 20 square blocks.[17] In the 1970s, the population density in Chinatown was seven times the San Francisco average.[18] The estimated total population in the 2000 Census was at 100,574 residents.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown,_San_Francisco

 

[gweed123]

Those areas are a lot more urban and older. More akin to the DRL than the suburban construction for the SSE. SF is also much more expensive to build in than Toronto.

San Francisco's Central Subway will go through their financial district and Chinatown. It felt more dense to me than downtown Toronto for sure when I was there last April.

According to the San Francisco Planning Department, Chinatown is "the most densely populated urban area west of Manhattan", with 15,000 residents living in 20 square blocks.[17] In the 1970s, the population density in Chinatown was seven times the San Francisco average.[18] The estimated total population in the 2000 Census was at 100,574 residents.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinatown,_San_Francisco

Their financial district (let's say Market & Sansome) is pretty dense, but so is King & Bay. The density of the area the Central Subway is going through and the area the DRL would be going through is pretty similar. Also, the Central Subway is going underneath the Market St Subway, something the DRL will also have to deal with.

 

[kEiThZ]

More urban than Downtown Toronto? I'd put them at about the same. Not Manhattan, but certainly not the suburbs either.

I thinking like the parts of the DRL that would be east of the Don River. Also the terrain in SF....