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... and a chance at reviving the Sheppard subway to STC sounds like a winning package deal for Scarberians to me.
I don't think there's been any serious discussion of that other than the fantasies of some fetishists on the outside of the discussion.

Given that the current change in plan is based on planning and financial considerations , is the conclusion that we can't afford a $3.5 billion 8-km subway from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre, so make it $2.5 billion 6-km line ... I don't know how they'd suddenly toss that out the window to build a 2nd 8-km subway to it, with significantly lower ridership than the first one!
 
One possible configuration of SmartTrack / subway / LRT lines east of Kennedy:

http://imgur.com/mgph9do

I assumed that Sheppard East LRT funding got transferred to those new LRT lines with a hub at STC. That would defer the decision for Sheppard corridor.
 
Yes, maybe something from STC to Centennial College, then up to Malvern, but on-street rather than the overblown plan that was approved a few years back.

I have long argued that they didn't need to elevate past SC. Progress LRT at-grade on Progress, through Centennial and past Sheppard in the Hydro corridor, right to Malvern. Exact route proposed by the old TC plan. For a lot less.
 
I don't think there's been any serious discussion of that other than the fantasies of some fetishists on the outside of the discussion.

Given that the current change in plan is based on planning and financial considerations , is the conclusion that we can't afford a $3.5 billion 8-km subway from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre, so make it $2.5 billion 6-km line ... I don't know how they'd suddenly toss that out the window to build a 2nd 8-km subway to it, with significantly lower ridership than the first one!

Fair enough. It just seems like they're deliberately avoiding doing anything with the Sheppard corridor as to leave open the option of extending the subway into Scarborough.
 
Fair enough. It just seems like they're deliberately avoiding doing anything with the Sheppard corridor as to leave open the option of extending the subway into Scarborough.

I don't see it like that. I think they are avoiding contentious debate on Sheppard, until they build something else in Scarborough. Think about it. If the SSE and Crosstown East are built, it makes it a lot easier to argue for Sheppard LRT in the future. Regardless of what happens with Smart Track.
 
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/john-torys-two-transit-plans-fighting-for-same-riders/article29027573/

New analysis is showing how much two of Toronto Mayor John Tory’s key transit projects risk competing with each other for riders.

Included in a voluminous release of transit planning reports late Thursday, the finding that SmartTrack could push Scarborough subway ridership below 10,000 per hour is likely to renew questions about the viability of having the two lines operate so close together.

Mr. Tory ran on a promise to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway into Scarborough and also on the proposal he dubbed SmartTrack – a sort of local service added onto the existing GO rail network, including through Scarborough, with 22 stops.

While campaigning, Mr. Tory often answered questions about his transit proposals by saying he was determined to make them happen. And he brushed off concerns about the two lines competing by saying that he didn’t talk to anyone who believed the city was building too much transit. In Scarborough, though, transit planners were alarmed enough to study a broad range of possible alignments for the subway extension, even considering taking it well off the direct route to move it away from Smart Track.

The impact the lines would have on each other is laid bare in the new reports.

“Extending the Bloor-Danforth subway line into Scarborough is an important addition to our transit network and will provide critical transit for Scarborough,” mayoral spokeswoman Amanda Galbraith said in a statement. “Ridership numbers are always lowest at the ends of the line, but that doesn’t mean that each region of our city should not be served by high-speed transit.”

Both Chief Planner Jennifer Keesmaat and Mr. Tory have stressed to reporters in recent weeks that ridership is not the only factor when making transit decisions.

“Of course ridership projections are not the only factor, but they are a core indicator that has been used time and time and time again to provide a rationale for projects,” countered midtown Councillor Josh Matlow Thursday evening. “In the specific Scarborough debate, I remember [ridership] being a critical factor.”

Mr. Matlow said he did not want to comment directly on the reports until he had had time to read them.

The new reports also included a recommendation from city staff for pared-down versions of SmartTrack. They are urging Metrolinx, the regional transit agency, to consider options that serve 11 existing stations, and between four and eight new ones.

The new transit ridership figures show that, according to modelling done for the city by researchers at the University of Toronto, the three– or four-stop Scarborough subway extension Mr. Tory campaigned on would have a peak usage of 13,700 to 17,700 people per hour per direction. That is in line with an earlier projection, but the figure drops sharply when the mayor’s SmartTrack proposal is added to the mix.

With SmartTrack running trains at 15-minute intervals, the peak number of passengers using the Scarborough extension goes down to 12,600. And with it running every five minutes – which earlier city reports have suggested would be necessary – Scarborough peak ridership goes down to 9,800.

The lowest figure from the latest report is barely more than the 9,500 people city staff projected years ago. That figure was considered marginal for a subway and was later replaced by projection for 14,000 riders, which made the case for a subway stronger but attracted accusations of fiddling the numbers.

These latest ridership projections are not definitive, though.

Since the campaign, a new proposal for a one-stop subway extension has emerged – with an estimated price of $2.5-billion. Changing to that plan would have an effect on the numbers: Fewer stops would mean a faster run by the train, which could attract more passengers, but there would not be as many places for them to board. More modelling work will be needed on this new proposal.

In the reports out Thursday, city staff said that more work was needed to assess demand on a whole series of transit proposals.

“This work will further assess the network impacts of transit lines [in the report], as well as other potential network additions,” they write. “Appropriate sequencing of the range of projects being considered for the transit network will be better understood through this modelling work and will inform the phasing of the possible future transit networks.”
 
I didn't think this was news anyway? I thought there was an article months ago sounding the alarm on initial projections showing potential competition between the lines.

Nope, the reports have more or less made it out to the public since Feb. Still, it's bit of a pickle they've gotten themselves into. You know, having to turn oneself into a pretzel to justify the ridership for two transit lines while you can't even commit to building where there is no excess capacity is just an embarrassment. Then again, that's what happen when you build transit as a way to get votes instead of by needs.

AoD
 
I think this quote summarizes the issue quite nicely:
“Ridership numbers are always lowest at the ends of the line, but that doesn’t mean that each region of our city should not be served by high-speed transit.”

The article quotes that ridership would drop to 9,800 with 5min Smart Track...but isn't that 5min unrealistic, making the whole point moot? Will GO RER ever get down to 5min? I thought 15min was the goal.
 
But 5 min GO RER is sold as a way to "relief" the system - so you're kind of stuck on how you juggle these numbers to justify what line you want to mention to whatever segment of the population you want to sell to.

AoD
 
so how will all this be handled? What gets built and where and when?

Well, I can't see them backing away from the BD extension, and Smarttrack is just RER by a different name. Both will get built? And besides, since when has poor ridership ever prevented schemes from going through?

AoD
 

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