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The Globe and Mail article says that the Scarborough-Malvern LRT also has cost overruns.

Cost overruns affect all types of rail equally.

It says that, but I'm not seeing that jump. Numbers from the Globe article and previous articles:
  • Subway: $2 billion + $0.9 billion (↑ 45%)
  • LRT: $(3.56 - 2.0 =)1.56 billion + $0.04 billion (↑ 2.6%) (which may be rounding anyway)
 
They could make the Malvern LRT a huge circle that turns west from the University all the way to Kennedy and then south in the SRT corridor.
 
But we have to take into account the new funding model from the Federal government that would take 50% of the tab once it's shovel ready. Since it's not ready yet, we really are in the dark until the province decides what to do. One thing they made absolutely clear, they will build a subway, not an LRT nor upgrade the SRT, subway only. Let's not forget that it's the province that took the subway football and ran with it to get their MPP elected. I would expect them to pay for the extra cost after the feds pay the 50% share of the cost. Since the city is already collecting the tax levy for Scarborough ($1 Billion), whatever would be remaining should be the province.

What makes the whole mess look so bad is the sharp drop of ridership which is explained by cutting 2 stations and have Smarttrack cannibalizing the subway. If both the city and the province wants to save face, Smarttrack East, north of Kennedy, must be dropped and the 3 stop plan reinstated to get that ridership back, which falls under subway technology threshold (14,000) and serve riders living north of the 401. One way to control costs is to have the subway go above ground in the SRT corridor and elevated at STC and beyond. City did pass a motion (I think) to have above ground studied.

One way or another, the transit plan in Scarborough will happen and these are the scenarios for the province to consider under the new numbers:


Funding under Trudeau Government

Old option A from Queen's Park: 3 stop subway at $4.3B
  • $2.15B from the feds
  • $1.5B province (assuming they won't commit more)
  • 650M$ city (originally on the hook for $1B)

Old option B from Queen's Park: If the city refuse to pay, it's 2 stop subway: The city is collecting the levy so I don't see this happening.

New Scarborough plan:

1 stop Subway + Crosstown East at $4.5B
  • $2.25B Feds
  • $1.5B province (assuming they stick with this number)
  • $750M City (originally on the hook for $1B)

What if?
Province submitting 3 stop subway + Crosstown East to Ottawa for funding and dropping Smarttrack East to fix the ridership issue back to it's original 14,000 figure?

3 stop subway + Crosstown East ($4.3B+$1.6B=$5.9B)

  • $2.95B from the feds
  • $1.5B province (if the province doesn't move from this number)
  • $1.45B $ city (The extra $450M should be funded by the province)
Building the 1 stop subway under this ridership would be a monumental mistake unless they can cut the cost by having it above ground. I base my analysis on the fact that the province will not reopen the LRT debate, which they made clear on numerous occasion, regardless of what the city says. So if it must be subway, the ridership must be fixed and only the 3 stop subway in combination with cancelling Smarttrack East stations north of Kennedy, while having Crosstown East bringing extra ridership can accomplish that.

Pricy? Yes, but your ridership is there. If we were under the Harper government who had only committed $660M for the line, yes this would be pure insanity. Under the Trudeau government, yes it is pricy but it's still realistic to have the 3 stop subway and Crosstown East. The Federal government would take half of the costs while the city is already collecting the levy.

My opinion is, since the province is trapping the city into the subway plan, they should be paying for the extra $450M and extra costs, not the city who's already doing its part. That's because even if city council voted to get the LRT back, the province would just say ("NO", you're getting a subway), so that extra cost should be Queen's Park responsibility.

The city's responsibility is to have Tory drop Smarttrack East to get the ridership at a more optimal level. This 7,000 number is very bad for the amount being invested. If there's a way to double it, they have a responsibility to make it happen.
 
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But we have to take into account the new funding model from the Federal government that would take 50% of the tab once it's shovel ready.
Just because the money is coming out of the left pocket instead of the right pocket, doesn't mean it's no longer a waste of money.
 
Just because the money is coming out of the left pocket instead of the right pocket, doesn't mean it's no longer a waste of money.

It wont be a waste if the project is done right and the ridership is there. Please read the green model.

However, it is a waste under the current plan
 
The subway never made as much sense as the LRT. But I agreed with Candidate John Tory that it was time to just get on with it already. Then I applauded him when Keesmaat's team produced the 1-stop compromise which was still dumb in several respects but at least managed to give someone a little of what they wanted; a perfect compromise.

But now I think it's clear that everyone is turning off their brain and opening their wallets to make this thing happen, come hell or highwater. Tory's sense of practicality and fiscal conservatism is out the window. Every time more information comes in, it makes the project look worse and no one blinks.

Halve the ridership projections? Still good.
Increase the cost by 1/3? Still good.

I'm just embarrassed for them at this point. Every time I see the graphic on Twitter of the ZERO - literally ZERO -new residential units planned for the centre it makes my stomach turn.

They'll build it and maybe won't bankrupt the city. But it will be a long-term white elephant akin to the Big Owe. It will make the Sheppard subway (itself a compromise of compromises; sacrificing Eglinton and half its length) look like the smartest thing the city did since...jeeze, I can't even think of a good thing the city did to use as a joke metaphor. Quelling the rebellion of 1837?
 
If you look at both Kipling and Kennedy, the assumption of LRT was already there when those stations were designed. My recollection is that virtually no one foresaw further subway extensions. The Province came along with this dream of creating a transit manufacturing industry in Ontario and needed a flagship implementation of ITCS technology. That overrode the LRT idea.

The other factor that mattered in the early 80's is that borrowing rates were through the roof. Governments were running in the red already. Adding a subway expense just wasn't on.

- Paul

That's my point though... A surface subway built in the 80s, while Kennedy was still being designed (so no costly retrofitting), probably would've costed the same or less than the SRT, especially since you wouldn't need a whole new yard and maintaining a completely different fleet.
 
The subway never made as much sense as the LRT. But I agreed with Candidate John Tory that it was time to just get on with it already. Then I applauded him when Keesmaat's team produced the 1-stop compromise which was still dumb in several respects but at least managed to give someone a little of what they wanted; a perfect compromise.

But now I think it's clear that everyone is turning off their brain and opening their wallets to make this thing happen, come hell or highwater. Tory's sense of practicality and fiscal conservatism is out the window. Every time more information comes in, it makes the project look worse and no one blinks.

Halve the ridership projections? Still good.
Increase the cost by 1/3? Still good.

I'm just embarrassed for them at this point. Every time I see the graphic on Twitter of the ZERO - literally ZERO -new residential units planned for the centre it makes my stomach turn.

They'll build it and maybe won't bankrupt the city. But it will be a long-term white elephant akin to the Big Owe. It will make the Sheppard subway (itself a compromise of compromises; sacrificing Eglinton and half its length) look like the smartest thing the city did since...jeeze, I can't even think of a good thing the city did to use as a joke metaphor. Quelling the rebellion of 1837?

Anyone who is against building the Scarborough subway should also support mothballing the Vaughan subway extension north of Steeles, as it is likely to be far less busy. How much development is being built along that subway extension? Vaughan Centre is a joke and is unlikely to ever be successful because it is right beside a large railway yard. Already Downsview station is severely underused, yet billions are being spent to build a subway extension from there.

Scarborough Centre at least has a popular shopping mall, a busy bus terminal and numerous condos and office buildings, and the SRT is overcrowded. Vaughan Centre has nothing and the buses there are empty.
 
Anyone who is against building the Scarborough subway should also support mothballing the Vaughan subway extension north of Steeles, as it is likely to be far less busy. How much development is being built along that subway extension? Vaughan Centre is a joke and is unlikely to ever be successful because it is right beside a large railway yard. Already Downsview station is severely underused, yet billions are being spent to build a subway extension from there.

Scarborough Centre at least has a popular shopping mall, a busy bus terminal and numerous condos and office buildings, and the SRT is overcrowded. Vaughan Centre has nothing and the buses there are empty.

Any place can be a manufactured destination if you throw enough zoning permissions and dollars at it.
12 years ago Liberty Village was nothing but railway lines, slaughterhouses and porn studios.
 
The notion of a subway to STC - acceptable; the notion of one stop, 3 billion dollar subway under the current alignment take a lot of chutzpah to swallow.

AoD
 
The notion of a subway to STC - acceptable; the notion of one stop, 3 billion dollar subway under the current alignment take a lot of chutzpah to swallow.

AoD

What's your opinion on having the 3 stop back with Crosstown East if the Feds pays for 50%?
 
Seen after Tory's press conference:

Money-to-burn.gif
 
It was because of Tory's Smart Track, which shouldn't have Ellesmere station and Lawrence Station. Ellesmere is under usage even on the existing SRT. I'd support Smart Track without Ellesmere and Lawrence station, and a subway with Lawrence and STC station. The money of Ellesmere station should go to Crosstown extension.
 

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