[TheTigerMaster]

Is that possible? According to the latest (potentially low-balled) estimate of 7,000 per hour on SSE, Crosstown East would need about 10,000 hourly riders to be 40% above SSE.

Assuming that 80% of them connect to Kennedy Stn, that would be 8,000 per hour at the peak point. By comparison, Sheppard LRT is forecast to have only 3,000 per hour at peak.

Ahh, sorry I was looking at annual ridership for the two options, which was 15,850,000 riders for Crosstown East LRT and 11,300,000 for the Scarborough Subway.

 

[rbt]

Ahh, sorry I was looking at annual ridership for the two options, which was 15,850,000 riders for Crosstown East LRT and 11,300,000 for the Scarborough Subway.

Meh, it still works if you take out the optional people (bus riders who's buses could be redirected to any nearby station without inconvenience to the rider). Walkins for CELRT will be far higher than SSE; and walkins should be the main reason for choosing one location over another.


There are benefits to intercepting large numbers of buses earlier in their route and moving to a mode more efficient for very large numbers of passengers BUT the location that occurs at is extremely flexible.

I'd still like to see the city analyze a proposal that moves SCC to a less challenging location (something over GO's railway corridor). Yes, build a new mall and city offices and demolish the old ones; $4B can move a ton of buildings. No bus rider currently going to SCC will be inconvenienced by this in the least.

 

[RyanM12]

Maybe I'm missing something, but assuming we end up with LRT/RT and the Eglinton East, why are there no proposals for a cross-platform interchange between the BD and the SLRT/RT, and through-routing the Crosstown and Eglinton East LRT? The options listed on Steve Munro's article all seem kind of silly.

Now that I think about it, the surface subway along the RT route doesn't seem to bad. Rebuilding Kennedy, to align the tracks towards the rail corridor, seems like a good idea. There could be a better designed, more pedestrian friendly station closer to Kennedy Rd, and with the new lines they wouldn't need Kennedy to be such a large bus terminal. The current station area could be sold off by the TTC and re-developed. Put a couple mixed use towers there, podium retail, I'm sure it would pay for the construction. You'd just have to ensure a connection remains to the GO/Smartrack station.

 

[darth_freeman]

I think a mod should change the title of this thread to Coffey's Troll House. Because nearly every message is from him, he regurgitates the same ridiculous irrational inferiority complex argument all the time ("Everyone Hates Scarborough, Woe is Me, It's Only Scarborough") and then the rest of us cycle through arguments with him over and over and over. And the Troll smiles.

The guy doesn't listen to anything and isn't happy with anything..other than forcing his "Scarborough Vs Everybody" position down our throats. But hey, that's UT.

It's better to at least have some discussion from opposing points of view, rather than a circle-jerk where people only look at dollars and cents and agree with each other by regurgitating the same falsehoods brought up by the transfer city lefties.

It is a very complex issue with many points of view and factors to consider.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Let’s build a rapid transit network for Scarborough now

For the cost of a one-stop subway, long-forgotten east-end residents can be served by 24-stop LRT system

From link, in The Star.

By Josh Matlow, and Paul Ainslie
Thu., July 7, 2016

Toronto has a priorities problem.

When large infrastructure projects are chosen that benefit relatively few people, such as the underused Sheppard subway line, poorly planned Union-Pearson Express (UPX) and unnecessary Gardiner East rebuild, there is less funding available to serve your real needs.

City Hall is on the brink of seeing history repeat itself by making yet another short-sighted decision. It might actually choose to build a single subway stop rather than a 24-station LRT network for Scarborough.

We all agree that the one-stop option would provide fast service from Scarborough Town Centre (STC) to Kennedy Station; so would the LRT, which would run through its own traffic-separated corridor. However, with a one-stop subway, the residents in the rest of Scarborough (comprising 35 per cent of Toronto’s land area) would be left on a bus.

For approximately the same city funding, we can choose instead to build two LRT lines. One would have seven stops using the existing RT corridor to link the Scarborough Town Centre and Centennial College to Kennedy Station on trains with the same top speed as a subway (80 km/h). This project is part of the signed Metrolinx Master Agreement, and would be mostly funded by the provincial government. Then, with money saved by moving forward now with the approved LRT, council could fund a new 17-stop extension of the Eglinton Crosstown through Kennedy, serving Kingston Rd, U of T Scarborough and several neighbourhoods in between.

Combined, the LRT lines would provide rapid transit to the 96,200 existing residents and employees who are within walking distance of a station. That’s six times more than a one-stop subway. The 24 LRT stations’ geographic coverage better matches the needs of residents who want more than just to leave Scarborough.

In fact, recent data shows that 48 per cent of trips are local compared to just 23 per cent ending downtown. Ridership projections for a one-stop subway predict almost 8,000 fewer daily users in 2031 than the current five-stop SRT has now. This suggests people want transit to get them to work or school in the morning, while also making it more convenient to go shopping, see a movie or visit with friends and family.

The LRT network also does a better job of delivering transit access to marginalized communities by serving 25,900 people living in five Neighbourhood Improvement Areas (NIAs) and three former Priority Neighbourhoods. The one-stop subway would only serve 1,700 NIA residents.

Perhaps the most puzzling argument put forward in this debate is that only a one-stop subway is capable of unlocking the Scarborough Town Centre’s development potential. Tasked with providing a planning rationale for a subway stop, the city’s planning staff have developed a remarkable proposal for the area that would transform parking lots and ring roads into a more urban, pedestrian-friendly street grid.

It is unfortunate some have falsely created an exclusive causal relationship between this visionary plan and the one-stop subway. That’s simply misleading. The LRT would have more than double the capacity to serve projected ridership and its east-west alignment would better facilitate expansion of the Scarborough Town Centre area with an additional stop at McCowan — a flaw in the subway plan that city planning already identifies in its report. That’s why our chief planner previously stated that an LRT to Scarborough Town Centre, and stops beyond, would better serve “city building” goals than could a subway.

Poor choices can have long-lasting consequences. It was recently reported that Queen’s Park is paying more than $50 per ride to subsidize the Union-Pearson Express, while the TTC is still paying more than $10 for every trip on the Sheppard subway line. Already, we know a one-stop subway in Scarborough would require at least $2 billion in maintenance costs over the next 60 years — costs the city wouldn’t be responsible for with the provincially funded LRT.

A 24-station LRT network would not only provide more transit for Scarborough residents but would also leave more funding available for daycare spaces, youth recreation programs, parks, libraries and affordable housing.

Without a strong rationale to support their cause, one-stop proponents have resorted to populist rhetoric for a project that isn’t even that popular. Poll after poll shows Scarborough residents see through pandering statements; caring more about whether new rapid transit will take them where they need to go rather than the type of vehicle they ride.

Council will meet on July 12 with an opportunity to put people before politics, and finally move forward with evidence-based plans that serve more residents for fewer dollars. Please tell the mayor and your local councillor that you choose 24 stops for Scarborough.


Josh Matlow is councillor for Ward 22-St. Paul’s and Paul Ainslie is councillor for Ward 43-Scarborough East.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Except they can't. They could be served by a 7 stop lrt, which is to cost roughly the same as the subway. You could "save" 200 million, but given that 100 million of the Scarborough subway budget has already been spent.. You are looking at essentially the same price. The lrt would also require a 3 year shut down of the SRT, and would be complete later than the subway.

 

[macookie]

GO RER/smart tract could serve most of what the proposed (and cancelled) LTR line (if fair integration occurs), so why not just build a spur from Eglinton East LTR to go up McCowan to STC, (and if really needed loop this to a GO station to be built at Ellesmere) , and continue the Eglinton East LTR to go to Meadowville as well, and skip the subway expansion.

Except they can't. They could be served by a 7 stop lrt, which is to cost roughly the same as the subway. You could "save" 200 million, but given that 100 million of the Scarborough subway budget has already been spent.. You are looking at essentially the same price. The lrt would also require a 3 year shut down of the SRT, and would be complete later than the subway.

 

[WislaHD]

It's better to at least have some discussion from opposing points of view, rather than a circle-jerk where people only look at dollars and cents and agree with each other by regurgitating the same falsehoods brought up by the transfer city lefties.

It is a very complex issue with many points of view and factors to consider.

Agreed. Coffey can calm it with the attack on 'biased media' and 'downtown lefties', but I do appreciate the counter-view as it does reflect the arguments made by proponents of the subway plan. It would be a dull, boring world if everyone agreed with each other.

 

[christiesplits]

Regarding next week's vote, is there a decent chance that council could go against Tory?

I know two original pro-LRT voters, DWM and McMahon (both on the Exec) reversed their vote, while Perruzza went from pro-subway to pro-LRT.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Woah, take a look at this Forum Research poll. Support for the Scarborough Subway has plummeted. Across the city, and including in Scarborough, the Transit City LRT proposal now has far greater support than the subway.

Question: Which of these two transit solutions [LRT or Subway] would be best for Scarborough?

Notice that a majority of people in Scarborough favoured the LRT plan.

When asked if they approve or disapprove of the LRT and subway plans, a great majority (71%) of Scarborough residents approved of the LRT. Only 56% approved of the subway.

Source: http://poll.forumresearch.com/post/2542/lrt-preferred-to-subway-in-scarborough

 

[drum118]

Except they can't. They could be served by a 7 stop lrt, which is to cost roughly the same as the subway. You could "save" 200 million, but given that 100 million of the Scarborough subway budget has already been spent.. You are looking at essentially the same price. The lrt would also require a 3 year shut down of the SRT, and would be complete later than the subway.

As for 3 years shut down, lets look at this.

If the Crosstown line is to join the SRT as plan, you open the existing SRT conversion in phases. Phase 1 would be from Kennedy to Ellesmire and that could be done in one year. Phase 2 could get you to STC under 2 years, depending on the Ellesmire tunnel and the work to it. The final phase as plan. What you could do for phase 2 is have the yard built as plan so it is in service when phase 2 opens and the next stations that could be open or open those in phase until the full extension is built. Been done else where.

Getting cars to the SRT would require running trains from one end of the city to the other until the SRT yard is ready for service is the down side and no real impact in doing so.

 

[salsa]

Woah, take a look at this Forum Research poll. Support for the Scarborough Subway has plummeted. Across the city, and including in Scarborough, the Transit City LRT proposal now has far greater support than the subway.

So coffey doesn't actually speak for the majority of Scarborough residents that he/she purports to represent. This is nothing new though, as most polls have shown the support for the subway is divided, or at best only supported by a slim majority.

 

[coffey1]

Regarding next week's vote, is there a decent chance that council could go against Tory?

I know two original pro-LRT voters, DWM and McMahon (both on the Exec) reversed their vote, while Perruzza went from pro-subway to pro-LRT.

Certainly there is a good chance & recently there has been a blitz in the media, Politicians, "Transit advocates", Polls, etc leading up to this to try to convince the Politicians on the fence.. But If it happens this is not going to help matters in this City. Take the pools with a grain of Salt as they are also heavily Politically biased. How many elections have shown 50-50 only to see a run away by one party?

Anyhow. Just don't see a vote for LRT as a victory for anyone. It will likely be the start of sheer Political chaos before the next Election.

 

[salsa]

Regarding next week's vote, is there a decent chance that council could go against Tory?

I know two original pro-LRT voters, DWM and McMahon (both on the Exec) reversed their vote, while Perruzza went from pro-subway to pro-LRT.

A lot of the pro-LRT councillors were willing to move on. But with the out of control costs of the subway combined with the mayor's refusal to get real about raising taxes, at some point a backlash might become a very real possibility not just against the subway but also the Gardiner. It probably won't happen next week, but it could happen later. Meanwhile get ready to see yet another cost increase very soon according to this snippet from a new article.

In recent weeks, the cost for the subway ballooned to $3.2 billion, after initial technical work revealed complications with tunnelling. But that cost is expected to increase because it is based on a schedule no longer achievable, according to the most recent report from city staff. The report explains the subway could be completed by 2025, but that’s dependent on council approving an alignment for the subway next week.

Council has not been asked to approve an alignment next week. They are being asked to approve further study of possible alignments now that the costs have risen. Asked what that uncertainty means for the schedule and cost of the subway, the TTC’s CEO Andy Byford told the Star in an email: “The estimate for completion will be dependent on when council approval is received.”

How long that approval will take is unclear, but pushing back the schedule by any length will likely mean an increase in cost, both to further extend the life of the SRT and accounting for inflation. ​

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Certainly there is a good chance & recently there has been a blitz in the media, Politicians, "Transit advocates", Polls, etc leading up to this to try to convince the Politicians on the fence.. But If it happens this is not going to help matters in this City. Take the pools with a grain of Salt as they are also heavily Politically biased.

People always trot this line out whenever a poll doesn't go their way. Forum previously had polls showing that a large majority of Scarbrough residents supported the subway, so I don't think political bias is the problem here.