[TheTigerMaster]

It may be a 2 stop extension, but it's still a 7 stop line at the end of the day so I don't know why you find that misleading. But if you want to use that logic, then the subway is a zero stop extension since it only replaces an existing station at Scarborough centre. Counting existing stations is misleading according to you.

It's actually a -4 stop extension, since we lose 4 stops.

 

[Palma]

So coffey doesn't actually speak for the majority of Scarborough residents that he/she purports to represent. This is nothing new though, as most polls have shown the support for the subway is divided, or at best only supported by a slim majority.

so what will tory say about the poll? Probably that they don't govern by polls. Or is that a Liberal stance

 

[Palma]

They could go against the 1 stop subway for sure. But let's not forget the alternatives are very limited...

The province will not revert to LRT

• 2 or 3 stop subway could be reinstated, at the expense of Crosstown East
• 2 or 3 stop subway with Crosstown East (City would be on the hook for much much more)

Only bright side is the Federal Government picking up 50% of the tab

City council should be slapped with a term limit...their incompetence on the transit file for decades is unbelievable. Those career politicians should make place for some much needed new blood.

the liberals orginally said it was the 7-stip LRT fully funded. And that if the city wanted subways they would only get the money earmarked for LRT and that anything over, the city was responsible for. So whats with this The province will not revert to LRT? Since when does the province interfere with building a project? Did they interfer in the Brampton vote and say we are going to build the LRt anyways?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So if Council approves the subway extension this week, will Council need to take another vote when the costs of the extension goes beyond $3.1 Billiom, as City staff say it will?

 

[rbt]

So if Council approves the subway extension this week, will Council need to take another vote when the costs of the extension goes beyond $3.1 Billiom, as City staff say it will?

Yeah, over-run is coming from city coffers. If it goes over any approved financing they'll need to approve some kind of budget item to deal with it.

That said, AFAIK they do not intend to budget anything from debt for the subway until the distant future (after the EA most likely). The Ford tax was only a fraction of the required funding at the time it was approved; very short now. So, even if the cost of the subway drops, they still need an additional vote to actually fund it even if just as a general capital budget vote.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Here's another damning Scarbrough subway tidbit: it's projected to carry 9,000 fewer people per day than the SRT does today. And boardings at Scarborough Centre in particular are expected to be about the same as 2012 levels

Two questions:
1. Why are we spending at least $3.2 Billion to replace an existing line with a new line that will move even fewer people? Are we building transit to serve even fewer people than we are today?

2. How the hell does Toronto City Planning expect this thing to revitalize Scarborugh Centre, when over 20 years of population growth, this subway extension is expected to add just about zero additional commuters to Scarborough Centre?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

3. What is the net travel time savings for this subway extension? Will the time saved by eliminating the transfer offset the travel time delays that will be experienced by the 9,000 daily Scarborough commuters who will now be forced to take the bus?

 

[pstogios]

TigerMaster, you are talking too much sense. You are too rational for this conversation. Let's get back to talking about how Scarborough is Forver Disrespected and how It's Only Scarborough. That's what we want to really hear about. That's all that really matters - how can "I Get No Respect" Scarborough finally get what they "deserve".

You can keep your facts, logic, fiscal intelligence and prudence.

p.s. I hope you all sensed my sarcasm there.

 

[Hopkins123]

It may be a 2 stop extension, but it's still a 7 stop line at the end of the day so I don't know why you find that misleading. But if you want to use that logic, then the subway is a zero stop extension since it only replaces an existing station at Scarborough centre instead of expanding to new neighbourhoods. Apparently it's misleading to count existing stations according to you, so I apologize for my propaganda.

And the Bloor-Danforth would be a 32-35 stop line. What is even your point? What's more logical, adding stops to a stub line that'll incur a transfer or adding stops to the connective tissue main line that links right across town transfer-free?

What I find misleading is the all the expenditures the LRT proponents willingly ignore like the billion dollar reno the LRT plan would require at Kennedy or shutting down the SRT indefinitely and all the shuttle buses that would require to pick up the slack. In the end the supposed $500 million cheaper LRT plan may not come out to be so cheap after all.

Cost alone - when the difference is so miniscule - is not the most valuable consideration to be made here. Customer satisfaction and convenience, shelf life and longevity and safeguarding for long-term future growth ought to be the more salient factors.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Cost alone - when the difference is so miniscule

The subway will cost at least $3.2 Billion, is certain to rise above that, and could be as expensive as $4.2 Billion.

Customer satisfaction and convenience, shelf life and longevity and safeguarding for long-term future growth ought to be the more salient factors.

I bet those 9,000 people who take the SRT now that'll be forced to take the bus won't be too happy.

 

[salsa]

Two questions:
1. Why are we spending at least $3.2 Billion to replace an existing line with a new line that will move even fewer people? Are we building transit to serve even fewer people than we are today?

2. How the hell does Toronto City Planning expect this thing to revitalize Scarborugh Centre, when over 20 years of population growth, this subway extension is expected to add just about zero additional commuters to Scarborough Centre?

Meanwhile in Paris,

 

[Voltz]

What I find misleading is the all the expenditures the LRT proponents willingly ignore like the billion dollar reno the LRT plan would require at Kennedy or shutting down the SRT indefinitely and all the shuttle buses that would require to pick up the slack. In the end the supposed $500 million cheaper LRT plan may not come out to be so cheap after all.

Cost alone - when the difference is so miniscule - is not the most valuable consideration to be made here. Customer satisfaction and convenience, shelf life and longevity and safeguarding for long-term future growth ought to be the more salient factors.

Talking about misleading, the cost of renovating Kennedy Station was included in the projects budget, as well as the replacement buses, that will be needed afterwards anyway.

 

[Hopkins123]

Talking about misleading, the cost of renovating Kennedy Station was included in the projects budget, as well as the replacement buses, that will be needed afterwards anyway.

So LRT projects are immune from cost overruns now? Only subway costs can balloon?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So LRT projects are immune from cost overruns now? Only subway costs can balloon?

It's not that subway projects are more prone to cost inflation, but rather that the Scarbrough Subway Extension project has more unknown factors contributing to uncertainty about the price than the Scarbrough LRT project.

The subway is now estimated to cost at least $3.2 Billion. But because the SSE project is running behind schedule, and not anticipated to open until 2025/2026, City Staff say there will be additional cost escalations beyond the $3.2 Billion currently budgeted. The magnitude of these escalations will be unknown until we get a revised schedule

Furthermore, only minimal design and engineering work for the SSE project has been completed. That means that we don't really have a good idea of what is necessary to build this infrastructure. So City Staff anticipate that prices will increase by up to $1 Billion above the $3.2 Billion currently budgeted. And note that this $1 Billion price escalation does not include cost escalations due to the delayed schedule. So we have two unrelated factors each addicting significant inflationary pressure on prices.

Detailed design and engineering work is complete for the LRT. That means that we know what is necessary to build it, and have highly accurate pricing estimations. Of course pricing can escalate future, but it won't be anywhere near the magnitude we've seen for the subway extension.

So essentially, all we know at this point is:
- The Scarbrough Subway Extension will cost between $3.2 Billion and approximately $4.2 Billion.

- The LRT will cost $2.9 Billion.

 

[pstogios]

Meanwhile in Paris,

View attachment 80892

When you read things like that, it makes this point quite stark: We have no idea what we are doing. It really is a joke how Toronto chooses, plans, builds and maintains public transit.