[CDL.TO]

Yes, that would make sense ... if the current SRT LRT plan was for just rebuilding the SRT to Scarborough Centre. However much, if not most of the $ currently assigned isn't to rebuild the 6-km line from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre, it's to extend it by 4-km to Sheppard.

Yes, that's the point. We need to look at the costs and benefits of the subway extension without the service to Sheppard vs the LRT which does go to Sheppard.

We know that the TTC's analysis says that there are more people within walking distance of the LRT (conversion+extension), but it hasn't really looked at aggregate travel time benefits for all of Scarborough compared to the subway alternative. Since a HUGE majority of travellers will still have to take a bus to the LRT station, there's good reason to believe that the subway extension would be more beneficial to more passengers.

How much time will the average passenger in Scarborough north of Eglinton save with the LRT plan? Is this more or less than the time that the average passenger in Scarborough north of Eglinton would save with a subway extension?

 

[gweed123]

All that demonstrates is that those who are writing on the subject for the media are ignorant - not only of what is possible, but of where to find the most recent TTC report, only a few weeks old, that shows the proposed alignment.

Yes, but what ends up happening is it skews the public debate, because for a lot of people they don't even know that report exists, let alone where to find it. Those articles are probably the only info they'll see on it, and the articles are inaccurate. That's a problem.

Any surprise that the list of projects is, essentially:
- GO improvements, plus...
- Hamilton's #1 project (Hamilton LRT)
- Halton's #1 project (Dundas BRT)
- Mississauga's #1 Project (Hurontario LRT)
- Brampton's #1 project (Queen Street BRT)
- York's #1 project (Yonge Subway extension)
- Durham's #1 project (Hwy 2 BRT)
- Politicians can't seem to agree what Toronto's priorities are, so instead we get Andy Byford's #1 project (DRL)

Seems like something for everyone if you're listening to the chairs of the regional governments. Unfortunately, politics is actually much more local than that.

And I'm totally fine with that. Everybody says "this is what we want most", and the plan delivers.

Personally, I think if Toronto wants more, they should take a couple of the tools that Metrolinx DOESN'T choose, and enact those on a local level, so they can have their own independent revenue stream, for projects that are more local in nature (ex: the FWLRT from Finch West to Finch Stns).

 

[sixrings]

Personally, I think if Toronto wants more, they should take a couple of the tools that Metrolinx DOESN'T choose, and enact those on a local level, so they can have their own independent revenue stream, for projects that are more local in nature (ex: the FWLRT from Finch West to Finch Stns).

Totally agree about FINCH and I would add in Eglinton to the Airport. Its going to be silly to have all these half finished lines.

 

[TOareaFan]

Any surprise that the list of projects is, essentially:
- GO improvements, plus...
- Hamilton's #1 project (Hamilton LRT)
- Halton's #1 project (Dundas BRT)
- Mississauga's #1 Project (Hurontario LRT)
- Brampton's #1 project (Queen Street BRT)
- York's #1 project (Yonge Subway extension)
- Durham's #1 project (Hwy 2 BRT)
- Politicians can't seem to agree what Toronto's priorities are, so instead we get Andy Byford's #1 project (DRL)

Seems like something for everyone if you're listening to the chairs of the regional governments. Unfortunately, politics is actually much more local than that.

My point is, this subway is not on this list.....so these councillor are tying their support for the funding tools to pay for Metrolinx' plan to:

A). Changing a part of the plan
B). Changing the cost of the plan
C). Changing the priorities in the plan (they think this should be at the top of the list)

I bet they won't be the only folks who will hold their votes hostage and send us into years of transit plan re-planning.

 

[CDL.TO]

And I'm totally fine with that. Everybody says "this is what we want most", and the plan delivers.

Should it work that way, though? If another project elsewhere would carry more passengers and do more to reduce congestion wouldn't it make more sense to find that rather than the Oprah Winfrey school of transit planning?

You get a rapid transit project! You get a rapid transit project! You get a rapid transit project!

I bet they won't be the only folks who will hold their votes hostage and send us into years of transit plan re-planning.

That's my point too. They tried to provide "something for everyone" but that's far from true at the councillor level.

 

[gweed123]

My point is, this subway is not on this list.....so these councillor are tying their support for the funding tools to pay for Metrolinx' plan to:

A). Changing a part of the plan
B). Changing the cost of the plan
C). Changing the priorities in the plan (they think this should be at the top of the list)

I bet they won't be the only folks who will hold their votes hostage and send us into years of transit plan re-planning.

Well yeah, how could the Bloor-Danforth extension be on that list? It isn't even officially a project yet.

One thing that hasn't really been considered is that $500 million isn't an obscenely large amount for Toronto to fund on it's own. Especially considering they're getting $8.4 billion worth of transit for nothing already. Hell, Ottawa, which nearly 1/3rd the size of Toronto, is putting in $900 million for it's LRT line.

Should it work that way, though? If another project elsewhere would carry more passengers and do more to reduce congestion wouldn't it make more sense to find that rather than the Oprah Winfrey school of transit planning?

You get a rapid transit project! You get a rapid transit project! You get a rapid transit project!

If you want political buy-in, yes. And by buy in, I mean both from the politicians and from the populous. It's hard to sell people on paying more if they don't see any new projects around them that will benefit them.

In an ideal world, you're right, it shouldn't have to be that way. But there's a reason the Bloor-Danforth Subway was built from Keele to Woodbine, and then extended from Keele to Islington, and from Woodbine to Warden (at the same time). And then simultaneously extended again to Kipling and Kennedy. It's all about equality, and avoiding the "hey, he got (fill in type of project here) and I didn't!".

 

[datamouse]

Any idea how long it would take to do new EA, detailed design, and the P3 contact letting before anything could even start?

 

[TOareaFan]

Well yeah, how could the Bloor-Danforth extension be on that list? It isn't even officially a project yet.

That is kinda the point.......we have a regional transit plan and, like the plan or not, the debate is now about how we pay for it....these guys are saying they will support the funding tools for the plan if the plan changes...otherwise not so much.

If, as I suspect, other approvals/support get tied to similar changes......we are headed into stall mode.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Any idea how long it would take to do new EA, detailed design, and the P3 contact letting before anything could even start?

Related question: Why do EA's take so long? To me it seems like they should take only a few weeks to a couple months at most. Not the 1+ years we often see. Clearly I'm not an engineer

 

[datamouse]

Hmm I'm surprised that the extension corridor hasn't been marked on the official plan for higher order transit. Not that it matters, an amendment would fix that. I think back when Transit City was announced the routes weren't part of the official plan as priority surface routes and they just had to add them. Just a curiosity I found since the idea of the extension has been around for awhile.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

I'm really starting to wonder how many councilors will back a Bloor-Danforth extension. Mayor Ford will most likely vote no to it, and Doug Ford has said he will not support it. Josh Matlow and Paul Ainslie have said they want to stick with the LRT plan. I'm guessing Doug Holyday, Vincent Crisanti, Giorgio Mammoliti, Shelley Carroll and Frances Nunziata will vote it down too.

Here are the ones backing a B-D extension:
Karen Stintz, Glenn De Baeremaeker, Raymond Cho, Chin Lee, Michael Thompson, Gary Crawford, Michelle Berardinetti, Joe Mihevc, and Josh Colle. And possibly Norm Kelly and Ron Moeser.

 

[nfitz]

I'm really starting to wonder how many councilors will back a Bloor-Danforth extension. Mayor Ford will most likely vote no to it, and Doug Ford has said he will not support it.

It does seem bizarre, that the Ford's would be voting to keep LRT over a subway that Ford promised to build as a campaign promise.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

It does seem bizarre, that the Ford's would be voting to keep LRT over a subway that Ford promised to build as a campaign promise.

It doesn't surprise me as the Ford brothers will just say they will not back a subway plan that is semi-paid with taxpayer dollars.

I have a guy feeling a Bloor-Danforth extension plan will die next week at city council. I hope I'm wrong, but we shall see... I just wonder which other councilors will back a B-D extension over the LRT plan.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It doesn't surprise me as the Ford brothers will just say they will not back a subway plan that is semi-paid with taxpayer dollars.

I have a guy feeling a Bloor-Danforth extension plan will die next week at city council. I hope I'm wrong, but we shall see... I just wonder which other councilors will back a B-D extension over the LRT plan.

Will funding be discussed at the meeting as well?

 

[SJD_Toronto]

Will funding be discussed at the meeting as well?

Yes, but the way councillors are trying to twist this is around to gain support for a majority of council is if Toronto city council backs taxes and tolls for transit expansion, then Scarborough should have finally have a subway but with a Bloor-Danforth extension instead of a Sheppard extension.

Many Scarborough councillors have been saying that their residents would probably be more willing to pay taxes and tolls for transit IF they can have the subway to the Scarborough Centre that they have been waiting for.