[nfitz]

Although the Orange line is severely overcrowded in Montreal, they are not fighting among themselves to know who deserves subway and who should settle for less. The Blue line will get extended east through less fortunate areas to reach Anjou...yes a big mall and the whole city agrees with it.

Really, your comparing to Montreal? The city that is so screwed up, that it voted to de-almagamate? The city that's so screwed up, that Westmount blocked Montreal putting any Metro stations in Westmount, resulting in lines that come up the Westmount border, and then run around it, or even under it without stopping?

And the Blue line to Anjou? The one that Mayor Drapeau promised? That actually has appeared on Metro maps in the subway 30 years ago, with black dots that they could replace with white dots when the stations opened?

And your using that as an example for Toronto???

 

[Ansem]

Really, your comparing to Montreal? The city that is so screwed up, that it voted to de-almagamate?

Some of the anglophones city did, the rest of the francophone boroughs stayed in Montreal. Just like the Ontario Liberals, The Quebec Liberals showed just how low they were ready to go to win seats in the anglophone districts by allowing referendums to separate from Montreal. Want to bet if McGuinty did the same this city might be different today?

The city that's so screwed up, that Westmount blocked Montreal putting any Metro stations in Westmount, resulting in lines that come up the Westmount border, and then run around it, or even under it without stopping?

It was a good thing. Who needs a subway more? Millionaires from Westmount or poor and middle class family from Verdun and Lasalle?

And the Blue line to Anjou? The one that Mayor Drapeau promised? That actually has appeared on Metro maps in the subway 30 years ago, with black dots that they could replace with white dots when the stations opened?

The PQ promised the line for the end of the decade. The blue line is now the #1 priority for rapid transit

And your using that as an example for Toronto???

Why not? Montreal's subway is only 1 km shorter than Toronto's with a lower population than Toronto.

 

[nfitz]

Some of the anglophones city did, the rest of the francophone boroughs stayed in Montreal.

Montréal-Est is an anglophone borough?

The PQ promised the line for the end of the decade. The blue line is now the #1 priority for rapid transit

That's how elections in Quebec work. Everyone promises this. The Laval extension was promised 3 elections in a row before anything happened. I'd be surprised that if they do start digging a blue line extension, that it goes further than Pie-IX initially. They haven't delivered the funding yet. I'm sure it will happen sooner or later ... but it's so utterly disfunctional.

Why not? Montreal's subway is only 1 km shorter than Toronto's with a lower population than Toronto.

You were using it as an example of functional government compared to Toronto. Though even the Metro - there hasn't been a rapid transit station built in Montreal for about a quarter-century. We've had 5 since then, with another 16 or so under construction (or starting soon).

 

[Ansem]

Montréal-Est is an anglophone borough?

Only francophone city who stayed behind.

That's how elections in Quebec work. Everyone promises this. The Laval extension was promised 3 elections in a row before anything happened. I'd be surprised that if they do start digging a blue line extension, that it goes further than Pie-IX initially. They haven't delivered the funding yet. I'm sure it will happen sooner or later ... but it's so utterly disfunctional.

And Toronto's better? At least the previous Montreal mayors (when there was true leadership) fought against Laval extension over the Blue line. Jean Drapeau and Jean Dore (who finished the orange and the Blue line when it was a stub) made the Montreal subway what it is today. They were able to make their cases to the province.

Laval got their subway when Bourque and Tremblay were mayors. Bourque was weak and Tremblay was a disaster. No leadership at all. Pierre Vaillancourt who was Laval's mayor for almost 30 years was a hell of a politician even if he was corrupted. He took the irrelevant Laval that Montrealers liked to make fun of and turned it into a smaller version of Mississauga. Heck, he overachieved by convincing the province to build him 3 subway station, while McCallion let Vaughan beat her to it.

Vaillancourt outmaneuvered Bourque and Tremblay like York Region did and is still doing to Toronto.

You were using it as an example of functional government compared to Toronto. Though even the Metro - there hasn't been a rapid transit station built in Montreal for about a quarter-century. We've had 5 since then, with another 16 or so under construction (or starting soon).

When did I say Montreal was a functional government? It used to be until the mid 90s. Nothing's been build in Montreal since Jean Dore left city hall. Sure Toronto is getting stuff built but in my book, it's still a failure.

Giambrone and Miller could have delivered the DRL in time for the Pan Am, but instead pushed Transit City while watching Vaughan getting a subway at Toronto's expense... To make matters worse, now we have Rob Ford to make matters worst. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheppard subway gets extended to Markham at this rate.

 

[nfitz]

Only francophone city who stayed behind.

It was none previously, now it's one. What about TMR? It's got twice as many Francophones than Anglophones.

AAt least the previous Montreal mayors (when there was true leadership) fought against Laval extension over the Blue line. Jean Drapeau and Jean Dore (who finished the orange and the Blue line when it was a stub) made the Montreal subway what it is today. They were able to make their cases to the province.

Jean Dore finished the Blue line when it was just a stub???? Where do you get this stuff? Sure, the line fully opened while he was mayor, but the entire line, as it currently exists, was well under construction when he became Mayor in November 1986. The remaining stations were all open just over 13 months after he took office! And how did Jean Dore finish the Orange line? Cote-Vertu opened while Drapeau was still mayor (barely).

Nothing's been build in Montreal since Jean Dore left city hall.

Nothing has started being built since Drapeau left city hall. Dore achieved nothing.

 

[Ansem]

It was none previously, now it's one. What about TMR? It's got twice as many Francophones than Anglophones.

You are correct if you are referring to mother tongue. That city is mostly bilingual and is mostly considered anglophone by montrealers

Jean Dore finished the Blue line when it was just a stub???? Where do you get this stuff?

Sure, the line fully opened while he was mayor, but the entire line, as it currently exists, was well under construction when he became Mayor in November 1986. The remaining stations were all open just over 13 months after he took office! And how did Jean Dore finish the Orange line? Cote-Vertu opened while Drapeau was still mayor (barely).

Nothing has started being built since Drapeau left city hall. Dore achieved nothing.

The line opened from 1986 to 1988 when he was mayor in 1986 but he was leader of the opposition since 1982 and unlike Ford vs Stinz debacle, they worked together on that file. Although the line was planned since 1975 they wouldn't make their minds until 1984 when it was decided that the blue line would not serve Montreal north and stopped it at St-Michel.

The first idea in the 70s was 2 lines (2 stubs)

1st line would have served Montreal North to Parc
2nd Line would have served University of Montreal to Snowdon.
They thought back then that the ridership was too low to merge the lines into 1

Saint-Michel opened to De Castelneau in 86
Parc in 87
The rest of the line in 88

My bad about the Orange line. I thought Cote-Vertu opened sooner that year

 

[BurlOak]

I know you don't blame me for this, but this is what happens when we elect people like Rob and Doug Ford who make silly promises like a Finch subway. Had Rob Ford not put all of his focus into burying the whole Eglinton Crosstown and a Sheppard Subway extension, but instead worked on a more realistic plan like a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sheppard, I'm willing to bet tunneling up to Scarborough Town Centre would have begun by now. Heck, he could of focused on a B-D extension and just a Sheppard Subway west extension to Downsview station, but instead, we are on the cusp of loosing the Scarborough subway extension... again.

Yes, politics suck. Politics are necessary but they suck.

Had Karen Stintz and the Left part of Council not put all of her (their) focus on restoring the Transit City plan, but instead worked on a more realistic plan like a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sheppard, I'm willing to bet tunneling up to Scarborough Town Centre would have begun by now. Like you said, Politics.

 

[gweed123]

Had Karen Stintz and the Left part of Council not put all of her (their) focus on restoring the Transit City plan, but instead worked on a more realistic plan like a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sheppard, I'm willing to bet tunneling up to Scarborough Town Centre would have begun by now. Like you said, Politics.

If OneCity had been the plan that was put forward at the Council battle last Feb (2012), I think it would have passed. Instead, the alternative to Ford's plan was to reinstall Transit City exactly as it was.

If that was the case, we wouldn't even be having this Scarborough debate right now. The main reason OneCity died is because very few council members wanted another transit fight after the Feb fight. It was a good plan, but it was a few months late in being proposed.

 

[SJD_Toronto]

Had Karen Stintz and the Left part of Council not put all of her (their) focus on restoring the Transit City plan, but instead worked on a more realistic plan like a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sheppard, I'm willing to bet tunneling up to Scarborough Town Centre would have begun by now. Like you said, Politics.

Yes, I agree with you and now the Bloor-Danforth extension plan will probably die on the council floor next week.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Nfitz intresting you chose montreal and not NY or Paris.

 

[nfitz]

You are correct if you are referring to mother tongue. That city is mostly bilingual and is mostly considered anglophone by montrealers

When I was a Montrealer, I never considered TMR Anglophone ... even back then it was a real mixture of things. Though that was back when Drapeau was still mayor ...

Nfitz intresting you chose montreal and not NY or Paris.

I haven't lived in either city, and don't really understand their politics, so couldn't comment. I know Montreal well though ...

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm getting tired of this Scarborough vs. Etobickoe vs. Old Toronto vs. North York nonsense. As far as I'm concerned, they don't exist. What I'm concerned with is getting the best transit possible for as many Torontonians as possible. Any childish arguments about which former municipalities are and aren't getting what are completely unhelpful.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Had Karen Stintz and the Left part of Council not put all of her (their) focus on restoring the Transit City plan, but instead worked on a more realistic plan like a Bloor-Danforth extension to Sheppard, I'm willing to bet tunneling up to Scarborough Town Centre would have begun by now. Like you said, Politics.

How was the BD extension more realistic than the TC plan? City Council was successful in restoring TC and bringing rapid transit to Finch West, Sheppard East and a huge chunk of Eglinton Avenue. I fail to see how ignoring TC and those projects to focus on a single extension of BD would have been beneficial to the City of Toronto.

 

[gweed123]

I'm getting tired of this Scarborough vs. Etobickoe vs. Old Toronto vs. North York nonsense. As far as I'm concerned, they don't exist. What I'm concerned with is getting the best transit possible for as many Torontonians as possible. Any childish arguments about which former municipalities are and aren't getting what are completely unhelpful.

This is far from a uniquely Toronto phenomenon. Rest assured that when it comes time for Ottawa to extend it's LRT system beyond the Baseline to Blair segment (Phases 1 and 1B), there will be plenty of infighting there too. It will probably end up being extended in all directions simultaneously, or if the money is short, by a couple stations at a time in 3 directions. There's no way people in Kanata or Barrhaven will stand for an extension into Orleans first, or vice versa.

Of course, Ottawa suffers from the same amalgamation syndrome as Toronto does. Ditto for Hamilton. Come to think of it though, this phenomenon in Ontario seems to exist almost exclusively in forced-amalgamated cities. You don't see this type of infighting in Halton, Peel, York, or Durham, because they're still under the two-tier system.

 

[gweed123]

How was the BD extension more realistic than the TC plan? City Council was successful in restoring TC and bringing rapid transit to Finch West, Sheppard East and a huge chunk of Eglinton Avenue. I fail to see how ignoring TC and those projects to focus on a single extension of BD would have been beneficial to the City of Toronto.

The delta between the subway and LRT option for Scarborough is only $500 million. Downgrade Finch West and Sheppard East to shoulder BRT lanes and you have your $500 million right there. It would still be rapid transit, and there would be a subway, and there would be an LRT. I would venture to say that most people would have been much happier with that compromise than the LRT-only or subway-only plans that have been floated by both camps in Council.