S
scarberiankhatru
Guest
"To me, it is still the best option."
To the Scarberians that will be using it, a subway is the best option.
To the Scarberians that will be using it, a subway is the best option.
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R
roch5220
Guest
About 50% of the ridership occurs during the peak 4 hours you quickly get around 10k per hour. If the line is expected to be mostly travel in one direction then you have hit capacity.
I know thats what the article says, but I wonder if they fully incorporate the fact that there would be only a couple of stops, and its very own line vs the street network. Realistically, if you had enough rolling stock, you could run these consecutively, ie. always having streetcars leave the station, as one leaves, you board up the next, though at times, you might have some backup entering the station.
G
GregWTravels
Guest
The cheaper, non-subway options will not leave more money available for other transit projects - the city can't afford any of these projects right now and it's not like upper levels of government will give them the extra dollars that are the difference betwen what the subway would cost and what the cheaper options cost to play with as they see fit.
This, unfortunatley, is exactly the issue. Big subway projects are favoured over wider spread LRT projects because big subway projects allow prov. and fed. politicans in one big gesture to give something to the GTA and then be done with it.
One of the problems, I think, is that there doesn't seem to be a plan to create this "network of street car lines in their own ROWs criss-crossing Toronto" that Mayor Miller has espoused as being his dream. Instead, we do little small projects that may be part of the larger goal, but it's hard to say because there isn't that plan to refer to.
I think we need someone within the municipal government to put together an implementation plan with specifics on the entire network. Let's get moving on creating a better network, instead of just working on the areas where the system is fraying.
Greg
U
unimaginative2
Guest
Realistically, if you had enough rolling stock, you could run these consecutively, ie. always having streetcars leave the station, as one leaves, you board up the next, though at times, you might have some backup entering the station.
That's impossible if you ever want to add on-street segments. With those in place, streetcars will bunch up and dramatically reduce capacity on the LRT-style segment.
R
roch5220
Guest
I'm not suggesting that. The SRT segment should be its own route regardless, because even without my proposal, they would still bunch up during peak times anyways due to traffic. Any added street network would have independant routes, but would be connected obviously to share the same support infrastructure.
M
miketoronto
Guest
"network of street car lines in their own ROWs
Streetcars in their own ROW is not going to work everywhere in Toronto. It will still take people one hour just to go to Yonge Street from say Scarborough Town Centre.
If we are going to invest in streetcars, then they better be put on the unused railway lines, etc, to offier a real kind of rapid transit. Not this ROW on the street stuff which will never compete with a car and hardly attract any riders.
G
GregWTravels
Guest
Streetcars in their own ROW is not going to work everywhere in Toronto. It will still take people one hour just to go to Yonge Street from say Scarborough Town Centre.
True, Streetcars in ROW is mostly for local transit. For cross-city, I personally think the transit network should really feed onto the GO network. A frequently-running, all-day GO network is the best way to get people in between the various centres in the city (downtown, North York, Etobicoke, Scarborough Centre).
From Scarborough, if you had trains running to Union, through mid-town (Summerville stop) and up north somewhere (the Finch hydro corridor) with infrequent stops, it would be a much quicker way to get people across town. There would be lots of subway and RT connections along the way (Scarborough RT replacement, Yonge Line, University-Spadina Line, Jane Street) to then move people north-south to their intended destination.
A
AlvinofDiaspar
Guest
Cross posted in the EA thread - yesterday's presentation by the city.
www.toronto.ca/srtstudy/p...tation.pdf
AoD
www.toronto.ca/srtstudy/p...tation.pdf
AoD
M
maxy505
Guest
Streetcars in their own ROW is not going to work everywhere in Toronto. It will still take people one hour just to go to Yonge Street from say Scarborough Town Centre.
LRT can be done properly -- it doesn't always have to look like Spadina or (likely) St Claire. Signal coordination, greater distance between stops, and multiple-door entry can result in a system that is slower but in the same league as a subway for speed. Then factor in building 5-10 times as many km of track, and the average door-to-door time of a TTC trip could be much lower than if 3 extra stations were put onto the BD line.
Anybody know what percentage of trips from the boroughs go downtown, and how many are within the same borough?
S
samsonyuen
Guest
From: www.insidetoronto.ca/to/s...carborough
_______________________________
Miller says transit decision expected in near future
Options include replacing aging RT line, building new subway
DAVID NICKLE
Apr. 24, 2006
Mayor David Miller says Scarborough residents can expect a decision on what to do about the aging Scarborough RT in the next few months - and despite an estimated $1.2 billion cost, he wouldn't rule out replacing the outmoded line with a subway.
"It would obviously be terrific to replace it with a subway - you would have three fewer stops so service wouldn't be as good - but it needs to be considered in the overall analysis of how we make transit available to people in this city," Miller said Monday afternoon.
Miller made the comments just hours before a report on three options for replacing the line was to be unveiled at the Scarborough Civic Centre.
The plan, authored by transit consultant Richard Soberman, looks at three options for replacing the RT line - an elevated miniature train that has taken commuters from Kennedy Station to McCowan Road since 1978.
The RT is well-used but wearing out, and because the manufacturer is no longer in business, replacing the cars and other parts is costly.
According to Soberman's report, however, replacing cars turns out to be the least costly option with a price tag of $350 million. It would cost $650 million to replace the line with a light rail option similar to the streetcar right-of-ways on Spadina and in Harbourfront. A subway, meanwhile, would cost $1.2 billion, take many years to build and would have to eliminate three stops.
Miller said that whatever happens with the RT, it cannot be the only thing the city does to improve transit in Toronto's east end.
"With respect to Scarborough there are a number of transit initiatives that are needed - there simply isn't rapid transit in enough of Scarborough," said Miller. "We've increased bus service this year, particularly in off-peak hours, which is important for people in Scarborough and north Etobicoke."
When asked how long it would take to make a decision on what to do about the RT, Miller said: "I think that decision can be made over the next few months."
_______________________________
Miller says transit decision expected in near future
Options include replacing aging RT line, building new subway
DAVID NICKLE
Apr. 24, 2006
Mayor David Miller says Scarborough residents can expect a decision on what to do about the aging Scarborough RT in the next few months - and despite an estimated $1.2 billion cost, he wouldn't rule out replacing the outmoded line with a subway.
"It would obviously be terrific to replace it with a subway - you would have three fewer stops so service wouldn't be as good - but it needs to be considered in the overall analysis of how we make transit available to people in this city," Miller said Monday afternoon.
Miller made the comments just hours before a report on three options for replacing the line was to be unveiled at the Scarborough Civic Centre.
The plan, authored by transit consultant Richard Soberman, looks at three options for replacing the RT line - an elevated miniature train that has taken commuters from Kennedy Station to McCowan Road since 1978.
The RT is well-used but wearing out, and because the manufacturer is no longer in business, replacing the cars and other parts is costly.
According to Soberman's report, however, replacing cars turns out to be the least costly option with a price tag of $350 million. It would cost $650 million to replace the line with a light rail option similar to the streetcar right-of-ways on Spadina and in Harbourfront. A subway, meanwhile, would cost $1.2 billion, take many years to build and would have to eliminate three stops.
Miller said that whatever happens with the RT, it cannot be the only thing the city does to improve transit in Toronto's east end.
"With respect to Scarborough there are a number of transit initiatives that are needed - there simply isn't rapid transit in enough of Scarborough," said Miller. "We've increased bus service this year, particularly in off-peak hours, which is important for people in Scarborough and north Etobicoke."
When asked how long it would take to make a decision on what to do about the RT, Miller said: "I think that decision can be made over the next few months."
S
samsonyuen
Guest
From: www.insidetoronto.ca/to/s...carborough
__________________________
Scarborough residents, councillors holding out for subway
Report offers three options for replacing Scarborough LRT
MIKE ADLER'Įmadler@insidetoronto.com
Apr. 25, 2006
Even after strong hints they should compromise on replacing the Scarborough Light Rapid Transit line, local councillors seemed determined Monday night that nothing less than a subway will do.'
'
For too long, we'Äôve played second fiddle'
to other parts of the city, declared Ward 37 Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre), chair of the Scarborough Community Council. '
'
Clearly, when you build subways there is a great opportunity for economic growth.'
'
Thompson said his Scarborough colleagues would match his support for a quick decision by the city and province to replace the aging and separate six-stop RT with a two-stop extension to the Bloor-Danforth line.'
Along with scores of residents wearing pro-Scarborough Subway stickers paid for by councillors, Thompson had just finished listening to veteran consultant Richard Soberman, who warned the city would have to decide to build the subway almost immediately 'Äî right after this fall'Äôs municipal election 'Äî if it hoped to avoid years with no rapid-transit service along the route.'
Even so, the subway extension would lose the current RT stops at McCowan Road, Midland Avenue and Ellesmere Road and cost $1.2 billion 'Äî not including the price of moving utilities and acquiring property for what would have to be a new route.'
'
This is a big ticket item,'
Soberman said, reminding his audience at Scarborough Civic Centre '
the province has announced they are going to fund a new subway (to York University) nowhere near Scarborough.'
'
Future needs on the route can be met by modifying the RT to the more modern standards of Vancouver'Äôs SkyTrain for $360 million or replacing it with an expandable light-rail system for $500 million, Soberman said.'
And Scarborough'Äôs leaders, he implied, may be better off proposing a package that accepts the least-expensive option and applies the $900 million difference to advancing the RT to Malvern and extending the Sheppard subway line to Scarborough Town Centre. '
Otherwise, said Soberman, '
What you make on the apples you might lose on the oranges.'
'
Thompson, however, said he rode the SkyTrain and wasn'Äôt impressed. '
'
We'Äôve been down this road before'
in the 1980s, when the province supported RT instead of a subway, he said. Now both have '
a second chance to make the right decision.'
'
Renewing the RT with larger cars '
would be a waste of money,'
Thompson argued. '
'
Time for the status quo is over.'
'
At the meeting, Scarborough Centre MPP Brad Duguid said he continues to be an advocate in the provincial government for a subway to Scarborough but added, '
people shouldn'Äôt be putting any false deadlines (forward) in terms of getting higher levels of government to commit to this project.'
'
Certainly, many are less than pleased with the current RT, which can'Äôt even handle daily loads without diverting riders to buses. Besides the time-consuming transfer point at Kennedy station, residents complained that buses are hard to reach at some stations and other stations are all but impossible for anyone except bus passengers to enter.'
'
For 15 years I'Äôve put up with that thing,'
said Joe Healy, a resident who described the RT as being '
like an evil concrete snake that cuts across Scarborough.'
'
The planet needs a way to get people out of their cars and '
the saddest thing that ever happened'
was the city'Äôs decision to stop building subways. '
Politicians should be looking at spending a lot more than $1.2 billion on transit improvements in Scarborough, Healy told Duguid. '
Morningside Heights resident Jeff Sorensen said it took him more than 40 minutes to reach Scarborough Town Centre on a bus from his home in northeast Scarborough. '
Extending the Sheppard line to the Scarborough Town Centre will take pressure off the RT and give commuters a chance to reach Yonge Street from the heart of Scarborough in minutes, he said.
__________________________
Scarborough residents, councillors holding out for subway
Report offers three options for replacing Scarborough LRT
MIKE ADLER'Įmadler@insidetoronto.com
Apr. 25, 2006
Even after strong hints they should compromise on replacing the Scarborough Light Rapid Transit line, local councillors seemed determined Monday night that nothing less than a subway will do.'
'
For too long, we'Äôve played second fiddle'
to other parts of the city, declared Ward 37 Councillor Michael Thompson (Scarborough Centre), chair of the Scarborough Community Council. '
'
Clearly, when you build subways there is a great opportunity for economic growth.'
'
Thompson said his Scarborough colleagues would match his support for a quick decision by the city and province to replace the aging and separate six-stop RT with a two-stop extension to the Bloor-Danforth line.'
Along with scores of residents wearing pro-Scarborough Subway stickers paid for by councillors, Thompson had just finished listening to veteran consultant Richard Soberman, who warned the city would have to decide to build the subway almost immediately 'Äî right after this fall'Äôs municipal election 'Äî if it hoped to avoid years with no rapid-transit service along the route.'
Even so, the subway extension would lose the current RT stops at McCowan Road, Midland Avenue and Ellesmere Road and cost $1.2 billion 'Äî not including the price of moving utilities and acquiring property for what would have to be a new route.'
'
This is a big ticket item,'
Soberman said, reminding his audience at Scarborough Civic Centre '
the province has announced they are going to fund a new subway (to York University) nowhere near Scarborough.'
'
Future needs on the route can be met by modifying the RT to the more modern standards of Vancouver'Äôs SkyTrain for $360 million or replacing it with an expandable light-rail system for $500 million, Soberman said.'
And Scarborough'Äôs leaders, he implied, may be better off proposing a package that accepts the least-expensive option and applies the $900 million difference to advancing the RT to Malvern and extending the Sheppard subway line to Scarborough Town Centre. '
Otherwise, said Soberman, '
What you make on the apples you might lose on the oranges.'
'
Thompson, however, said he rode the SkyTrain and wasn'Äôt impressed. '
'
We'Äôve been down this road before'
in the 1980s, when the province supported RT instead of a subway, he said. Now both have '
a second chance to make the right decision.'
'
Renewing the RT with larger cars '
would be a waste of money,'
Thompson argued. '
'
Time for the status quo is over.'
'
At the meeting, Scarborough Centre MPP Brad Duguid said he continues to be an advocate in the provincial government for a subway to Scarborough but added, '
people shouldn'Äôt be putting any false deadlines (forward) in terms of getting higher levels of government to commit to this project.'
'
Certainly, many are less than pleased with the current RT, which can'Äôt even handle daily loads without diverting riders to buses. Besides the time-consuming transfer point at Kennedy station, residents complained that buses are hard to reach at some stations and other stations are all but impossible for anyone except bus passengers to enter.'
'
For 15 years I'Äôve put up with that thing,'
said Joe Healy, a resident who described the RT as being '
like an evil concrete snake that cuts across Scarborough.'
'
The planet needs a way to get people out of their cars and '
the saddest thing that ever happened'
was the city'Äôs decision to stop building subways. '
Politicians should be looking at spending a lot more than $1.2 billion on transit improvements in Scarborough, Healy told Duguid. '
Morningside Heights resident Jeff Sorensen said it took him more than 40 minutes to reach Scarborough Town Centre on a bus from his home in northeast Scarborough. '
Extending the Sheppard line to the Scarborough Town Centre will take pressure off the RT and give commuters a chance to reach Yonge Street from the heart of Scarborough in minutes, he said.
C
cdl42
Guest
Steve Munro has posed a 5-page excerpt from the 1977 Scarborough LRT Study (from before the technology was changed to UTDC ICTS), including a map showing the possible extensions of the line.
SLRT Study Extract PDF
SLRT Study Extract PDF
S
samsonyuen
Guest
That's really interesting. The map going across Eglinton and Finch hydro corridor with LRT! And the options of expansion in Scarborough (I prefer Malvern, but the other ones going onto Sheppard would've made sense too). I wonder why they never proceeded with expansion plans? Was the passenger count low at first?
A
ahrvojic
Guest
Star Editorial
`Trains' of streetcars best for Scarborough
Apr. 30, 2006. 01:00 AM
Fed up with years of being poorly served by public transit, many Scarborough residents want subway service expanded in their part of the city. They make a strong case, but should expect disappointment.
With no streetcar routes and only three subway stops in all of Scarborough, there is no denying that commuters there have limited transit options compared to most Torontonians.
Making the situation worse is the looming loss of an existing service. Scarborough's elevated light rail line, ill-advisedly built 20 years ago mainly to promote a Crown-owned corporation, is worn out and overcrowded.
It has only about nine remaining years of serviceable life.
Scarborough Centre Councillor Michael Thompson, among others, is calling for that line to be replaced with a subway. He is right in saying this part of the city has "played second fiddle" to the rest of Toronto in the realm of public transit.
Indeed, a few months ago, replacing Scarborough's obsolete light rail line with subway service appeared to be an option that made the most sense.
That was before the provincial government, in its March 23 budget, set aside $670 million to push the Spadina subway line to York University and beyond to the Vaughan Corporate Centre at Highway 7 and Jane Street.
While Scarborough pleads for more subway stops, all the momentum has gone to York and to expansion of the Spadina line. There are even some indications that the new Conservative government in Ottawa might provide some federal funding for the Spadina subway in its first budget on Tuesday.
An obvious solution would be to proceed with both of Toronto's much-needed subway expansions  eastward into Scarborough and north to Vaughan.
Realistically though, given the $1.2 billion cost of even one line, the city cannot afford to look beyond expansion of the Spadina line for the next few years.
The future of mass transit in Scarborough is likely to be found in a report released last week outlining three options for replacing the area's decaying light rail system.
Consultant Richard Soberman dismissed a suggestion that the elevated Scarborough Rapid Transit line be replaced with buses running on their own separate roadway. Instead, he offered three alternatives:
Replacing the line's antiquated light rail cars with newer, bigger models. This would cost about $350 million and could be done quickly, over about a year. But it would only boost the system's capacity by about 10 per cent.
Switching from light rail cars to new streetcars that could be linked into "trains" on the existing rapid transit route. This would take three years to deliver and cost about $490 million, since some tunnels would have to be heightened. But it would more than double the capacity of the existing system.
Building a $1.2 billion subway; a project taking about nine years. It would move the most people, more than seven times the number carried today.
Of these options, the middle one based on new streetcars linked into trains appears to make the most sense.
In practical terms, now is simply not the time for Scarborough subway expansion. That train has left the station, and it is headed full speed toward York.
Buying new light rail cars to replace the old specimens now in use would be the cheapest and fastest option. But it would be a poor answer to Scarborough's growing transit needs.
Relying on streetcars, linked into trains, would by contrast increase ridership while costing far less than a subway. And it could be in service long before the existing light rail system rusts into oblivion.
At this point, it seems the better way.
`Trains' of streetcars best for Scarborough
Apr. 30, 2006. 01:00 AM
Fed up with years of being poorly served by public transit, many Scarborough residents want subway service expanded in their part of the city. They make a strong case, but should expect disappointment.
With no streetcar routes and only three subway stops in all of Scarborough, there is no denying that commuters there have limited transit options compared to most Torontonians.
Making the situation worse is the looming loss of an existing service. Scarborough's elevated light rail line, ill-advisedly built 20 years ago mainly to promote a Crown-owned corporation, is worn out and overcrowded.
It has only about nine remaining years of serviceable life.
Scarborough Centre Councillor Michael Thompson, among others, is calling for that line to be replaced with a subway. He is right in saying this part of the city has "played second fiddle" to the rest of Toronto in the realm of public transit.
Indeed, a few months ago, replacing Scarborough's obsolete light rail line with subway service appeared to be an option that made the most sense.
That was before the provincial government, in its March 23 budget, set aside $670 million to push the Spadina subway line to York University and beyond to the Vaughan Corporate Centre at Highway 7 and Jane Street.
While Scarborough pleads for more subway stops, all the momentum has gone to York and to expansion of the Spadina line. There are even some indications that the new Conservative government in Ottawa might provide some federal funding for the Spadina subway in its first budget on Tuesday.
An obvious solution would be to proceed with both of Toronto's much-needed subway expansions  eastward into Scarborough and north to Vaughan.
Realistically though, given the $1.2 billion cost of even one line, the city cannot afford to look beyond expansion of the Spadina line for the next few years.
The future of mass transit in Scarborough is likely to be found in a report released last week outlining three options for replacing the area's decaying light rail system.
Consultant Richard Soberman dismissed a suggestion that the elevated Scarborough Rapid Transit line be replaced with buses running on their own separate roadway. Instead, he offered three alternatives:
Replacing the line's antiquated light rail cars with newer, bigger models. This would cost about $350 million and could be done quickly, over about a year. But it would only boost the system's capacity by about 10 per cent.
Switching from light rail cars to new streetcars that could be linked into "trains" on the existing rapid transit route. This would take three years to deliver and cost about $490 million, since some tunnels would have to be heightened. But it would more than double the capacity of the existing system.
Building a $1.2 billion subway; a project taking about nine years. It would move the most people, more than seven times the number carried today.
Of these options, the middle one based on new streetcars linked into trains appears to make the most sense.
In practical terms, now is simply not the time for Scarborough subway expansion. That train has left the station, and it is headed full speed toward York.
Buying new light rail cars to replace the old specimens now in use would be the cheapest and fastest option. But it would be a poor answer to Scarborough's growing transit needs.
Relying on streetcars, linked into trains, would by contrast increase ridership while costing far less than a subway. And it could be in service long before the existing light rail system rusts into oblivion.
At this point, it seems the better way.
E
EnviroTO
Guest
The reality is that no route in Scarborough will ever qualify for a subway more than a route from Kennedy to SCC. If not there then nowhere. Try and sell to Scarberians that there will never be a subway extension in Scarborough a few years after a North York subway line opened and a few weeks after another North York to Vaughan subway is announced. If Scarborough is ever going to have more than a second rate transit system it is going to have to start with the subway. How can a subway to Vaughan Centre (i.e. AMC theatres and a parking lot) get funding before SCC? A Toronto Transit Commission subway to Vaughan before Scarborough? If I lived in Scarborough or was a politician in Scarborough I wouldn't stand for that. If there isn't money for the subway to Scarborough because of the Spadina extension then throw on the breaks for the Spadina extension.