News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 02, 2020
 8.9K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 40K     0 
News   GLOBAL  |  Apr 01, 2020
 5.1K     0 

There will not be any pocket (storage) track east of Don Mills (unless you count the one way east which is just east of the Sloane stop.) In the EA, they called for a storage track east of Don Mills but they soon discovered (back in 2012-2013 I believe) that there wouldn't be room between the east portal for Science Centre (Don Mills) station and the Aga Khan Park & Museum (Ferrand) stop. That was the reason that the Ferrand stop was proposed to be dropped. The Leslie stop was proposed to be dropped at the same time for different reasons (see the Crosstown thread for 100's of posts around that time for details). Locals protested and Ferrand was restored making the storage track east of Don Mills an impossibility.

Any short-turning will be done at Laird using the storage track they are building underground between Laird Station and Brentcliffe Road.
The drawings that I have seen specifically note a crossover and storage tracks at Don Mills Station - both in the below grade portion. This is with a Ferrand stop. LINK see page 73 from the EA you mentioned.

Have you seen a different version showing the removal of the underground storage track?
 
very minor indeed...but, back to your original point, if the change in service is at Pickering it can't possibly be the reason that some EB trains turn around and go WB again at Union instead of going straight thru....Pickering is a few stops east of Union.
Some express trains in the morning stop at union as well and turn back.
 
Tory is maroon and wears his business dealings without even knowing how obvious I think. Who do you think Smarttrack is for and why it has to be built? Is it for Toronto or possibly Markham consulting firms? There is likely a reason he doesn't care for the Ellesmere stop.

This has nothing to do with RenewScarborough other than they support the plan for action & subway and Oxford shares a similar interest, obviously which I have no problem with them promoting. I would do the same. But if they are lobbying its not cool & this happens with basically all Politicians as they all have ties to some business or lobby group but it should never be OK. Im not sure its possible but id love to see people stand up to remove this from Politics.

I appreciate your perfectly reasonable response, which also didn't contain any unnecessary swipes at the media. :)

So about SmartTrack...
Who do you think Smarttrack is for and why it has to be built? Is it for Toronto or possibly Markham consulting firms?

There's so much to be said that it could fill an entire book, but here's what I know. Basically it was inspired by a report from a consulting firm (Strategic Regional Research Associates) that devised a similar plan of their own which they dubbed the "Regional Relief Line". John Tory was handed the SRRA report by his developer friends (all of which donated to his campaign) who want to develop their lands, and they branded it SmartTrack. Steve Munro slammed this shoddy report in an article. For one they relied on outdated google maps images and predicted that the downtown office marked was dead, that all the new growth would come to the suburbs in areas that (surprise!) SmartTrack would serve. But guess what, after the election that same firm was hired to prepare population and employment forecasts for SmartTrack.

Moving on, we also know who were some of the people who put SmartTrack together.
- John Duffy: political strategist, Tory campaign policy chair, also worked on the prov Liberal leadership campaign of Glen Murray (former transportation minister) and Kathleen Wynne
- Iain Dobson: cofounder of SRRA, acquainted with Duffy, a Metrolinx board member, a well-connected commercial real estate executive
- Anne Golden: also a Metrolinx board member
- Glenn Miller: has connections to SRRA
- Eric Miller: U of T professor and close ally of John Tory. During the election he gave SmartTrack an "A+" in a CBC interview, wrote op-eds promoting ST while disparaging the relief line, and dismissed criticisms as "politically motivated". After the election he sat on Tory's transition team, and later was awarded a contract to study ST.

We also know that a few of Tory political allies, former campaign staff and city hall lobbyists formed a group called Friends & Allies of SmartTrack. It's purpose was to lobby councillors and "educate the public" about ST using mostly recycled campaign material. The amount of lies and alternative facts they produced might even rival the Scarborough subway. Take a look, it's truly amazing. I also highly recommend this excellent takedown written by UT moderator Sean Marshall, which thoroughly demolished all of their talking points and exposes the people involved.

We also know that developer First Gulf has ambitious development plans for the Unilever site, which will have a SmartTrack station. A major development like this is critical for the success of Tax Increment Financing which was supposed to pay for SmartTrack without raising taxes. But aside from ST, the Gardiner East plans were another important piece in enabling this development. First Gulf's preference was to maintain the highway as long as the off-ramp is relocated away from their land. This went on to become the Gardiner Hybrid proposal which they introduced during the election and convinced the city to study. Later, city staff strongly recommended to tear it down but Tory instead fought aggressively for the First Gulf hybrid proposal. After the city's report came out, Eric Miller (along with involvement from the car industry and business interests) produced a competing report claiming a much longer vehicular delay for the teardown option, based on different parameters that were not actually in the plan in front of council. Tory & allies ran with that report anyway and used it to sway the divided council in his favour. While Tory's talking points were mostly on traffic flow, I have little doubt that SmartTrack and First Gulf also factored into this all along.

So to summarize, sole-sourced consulting contracts were awarded to non-independent consultants that Tory selected. It went to people who were the architects of SmartTrack, who have publicly praised it during the campaign, who have ties to developers and politicians. This whole thing stinks to high heaven and appeared to be driven entirely by lobbyists, developers and political forces. SmartTrack was never about relieving the subway, it was a real estate development scheme designed to enable commercial development outside of the city, and somehow it became the job of Toronto taxpayers to shell out the money to do that.

For all the time and resources that have gone into SmartTrack, there is a long list of planned transit projects that have long been on the books and badly needed, but have not been afforded any attention by the Mayor's office. He could have picked any number of these projects to build, and all those meetings with Harper, Wynne, Trudeau could have secured funding for some of them. Much like SSE, what has ensued to this day was a stunning display of indifference to facts, pipe dream financing and technical assumptions, and cavalier dismissal of any critic that dared to question SmartTrack. Still, no one knows for sure what the final version of SmartTrack will actually be. But nevertheless it has changed the course of Toronto's transit planning, influenced the relief line and SSE alignment, put us on the hook for what is essentially a provincial infrastructure project, and is competing for scarce transit funding that should be put to better use.

I'll conclude with this succinct quote from Royson James: "Rarely has a Toronto mayor promoted a transit project with such glee, vigour and surety - minus even a modicum of evidence that the line is needed, will attract riders and fit with other planned projects."
 
There will not be any pocket (storage) track east of Don Mills (unless you count the one way east which is just east of the Sloane stop.) In the EA, they called for a storage track east of Don Mills but they soon discovered (back in 2012-2013 I believe) that there wouldn't be room between the east portal for Science Centre (Don Mills) station and the Aga Khan Park & Museum (Ferrand) stop. That was the reason that the Ferrand stop was proposed to be dropped. The Leslie stop was proposed to be dropped at the same time for different reasons (see the Crosstown thread for 100's of posts around that time for details). Locals protested and Ferrand was restored making the storage track east of Don Mills an impossibility.

Any short-turning will be done at Laird using the storage track they are building underground between Laird Station and Brentcliffe Road.

I don't know if this is still the plan, probably not, but when the plan was to go underground to Don Mills, they were going to make Don Mills a three track station with two centre platforms, so the centre track would be used for short turns, since there was not room for a storage track.

This could still be done to allow short turns at Don Mills, but I would think the plan is to have short turns at Lairid.
 
^ Certainly there are some fishy components in the SmartTrack story.

And yet, I believe that the whole affair is useful because it placed the emphasis on the expanded role of surface rail corridors for trips within 416.

I'd be happier with SmartTrack if they did not water it down by reducing the frequencies and cutting down the number of stations. But even in the watered-down form, it will improve transit trips for a fair number of riders.
 
Would be nice if one branch of the Eglinton Crosstown goes up to Scarborough Town Centre while the other branch goes to U. of T. Scarborough Campus.
If Eglinton was grade-separated from Leslie to Kennedy, then this plan would work. Maybe 2 trains to STC for every 1 to UTSC (~2 minute frequency on Eg. from Kennedy to Eg. West or Mount Dennis).
 
I appreciate your perfectly reasonable response, which also didn't contain any unnecessary swipes at the media. :)

So about SmartTrack...


There's so much to be said that it could fill an entire book, but here's what I know. Basically it was inspired by a report from a consulting firm (Strategic Regional Research Associates) that devised a similar plan of their own which they dubbed the "Regional Relief Line". John Tory was handed the SRRA report by his developer friends (all of which donated to his campaign) who want to develop their lands, and they branded it SmartTrack. Steve Munro slammed this shoddy report in an article. For one they relied on outdated google maps images and predicted that the downtown office marked was dead, that all the new growth would come to the suburbs in areas that (surprise!) SmartTrack would serve. But guess what, after the election that same firm was hired to prepare population and employment forecasts for SmartTrack.

Moving on, we also know who were some of the people who put SmartTrack together.
- John Duffy: political strategist, Tory campaign policy chair, also worked on the prov Liberal leadership campaign of Glen Murray (former transportation minister) and Kathleen Wynne
- Iain Dobson: cofounder of SRRA, acquainted with Duffy, a Metrolinx board member, a well-connected commercial real estate executive
- Anne Golden: also a Metrolinx board member
- Glenn Miller: has connections to SRRA
- Eric Miller: U of T professor and close ally of John Tory. During the election he gave SmartTrack an "A+" in a CBC interview, wrote op-eds promoting ST while disparaging the relief line, and dismissed criticisms as "politically motivated". After the election he sat on Tory's transition team, and later was awarded a contract to study ST.

We also know that a few of Tory political allies, former campaign staff and city hall lobbyists formed a group called Friends & Allies of SmartTrack. It's purpose was to lobby councillors and "educate the public" about ST using mostly recycled campaign material. The amount of lies and alternative facts they produced might even rival the Scarborough subway. Take a look, it's truly amazing. I also highly recommend this excellent takedown written by UT moderator Sean Marshall, which thoroughly demolished all of their talking points and exposes the people involved.

We also know that developer First Gulf has ambitious development plans for the Unilever site, which will have a SmartTrack station. A major development like this is critical for the success of Tax Increment Financing which was supposed to pay for SmartTrack without raising taxes. But aside from ST, the Gardiner East plans were another important piece in enabling this development. First Gulf's preference was to maintain the highway as long as the off-ramp is relocated away from their land. This went on to become the Gardiner Hybrid proposal which they introduced during the election and convinced the city to study. Later, city staff strongly recommended to tear it down but Tory instead fought aggressively for the First Gulf hybrid proposal. After the city's report came out, Eric Miller (along with involvement from the car industry and business interests) produced a competing report claiming a much longer vehicular delay for the teardown option, based on different parameters that were not actually in the plan in front of council. Tory & allies ran with that report anyway and used it to sway the divided council in his favour. While Tory's talking points were mostly on traffic flow, I have little doubt that SmartTrack and First Gulf also factored into this all along.

So to summarize, sole-sourced consulting contracts were awarded to non-independent consultants that Tory selected. It went to people who were the architects of SmartTrack, who have publicly praised it during the campaign, who have ties to developers and politicians. This whole thing stinks to high heaven and appeared to be driven entirely by lobbyists, developers and political forces. SmartTrack was never about relieving the subway, it was a real estate development scheme designed to enable commercial development outside of the city, and somehow it became the job of Toronto taxpayers to shell out the money to do that.

For all the time and resources that have gone into SmartTrack, there is a long list of planned transit projects that have long been on the books and badly needed, but have not been afforded any attention by the Mayor's office. He could have picked any number of these projects to build, and all those meetings with Harper, Wynne, Trudeau could have secured funding for some of them. Much like SSE, what has ensued to this day was a stunning display of indifference to facts, pipe dream financing and technical assumptions, and cavalier dismissal of any critic that dared to question SmartTrack. Still, no one knows for sure what the final version of SmartTrack will actually be. But nevertheless it has changed the course of Toronto's transit planning, influenced the relief line and SSE alignment, put us on the hook for what is essentially a provincial infrastructure project, and is competing for scarce transit funding that should be put to better use.

I'll conclude with this succinct quote from Royson James: "Rarely has a Toronto mayor promoted a transit project with such glee, vigour and surety - minus even a modicum of evidence that the line is needed, will attract riders and fit with other planned projects."

SmartTrack if GO/Metrolinx actually bothered serving Toronto with proper suburban rail. Even their RER plans skimp on Toronto. And GO still charges a ton more per km for Toronto riders.

Regardless of where SmartTrack came from, I'm glad somebody is raising the issue of surface rail for Toronto. We wouldn't have this thread if surface rail for the 416had been raised years ago.
 
If Eglinton was grade-separated from Leslie to Kennedy, then this plan would work. Maybe 2 trains to STC for every 1 to UTSC (~2 minute frequency on Eg. from Kennedy to Eg. West or Mount Dennis).

Election time is nigh! Time for everyone to pull out their crayons and napkins, we got some planning to do. :)
 
In Boston, the "short-turn" trains are actually branches off the main line.

5145122.png


Would be nice if one branch of the Eglinton Crosstown goes up to Scarborough Town Centre while the other branch goes to U. of T. Scarborough Campus. Currently talk is for a short turn for the Line 2 at Kennedy, with every other train going to Scarborough Town Centre, because of the expected ridership numbers.

I know that not all trains go through Union....but is that the reason? Isn't the service level pretty much the same either side of Union (ie. lots of trains in peak time and half hourly bi-directional service outside of peak?)

I have traveled the Green Line a few times. Currently,, there are no north branches. Eventually there will be, and then, some of the south branches will terminate at one of those branches. Not all of the current branches go all the way north too. This would be akin to How the 509, 510 and 511 streetcars operate. They are interlined for some of the routes, but they have branches as well.
 
And GO still charges a ton more per km for Toronto riders.

The TTC also charges people a ton more per km for short trips for long trips... so what? Go Transit never claimed to use a FBD scheme - they use a system of base fare + zone fares. The base fare is going to be a larger percentage of short trips than long ones.

If Toronto was serious about improving transit options, they wouldn't resist every single proposal for better integration and regional transit planning.
 
The TTC also charges people a ton more per km for short trips for long trips... so what? Go Transit never claimed to use a FBD scheme - they use a system of base fare + zone fares. The base fare is going to be a larger percentage of short trips than long ones.

If Toronto was serious about improving transit options, they wouldn't resist every single proposal for better integration and regional transit planning.

kEiThZ was factually incorrect. GO does not charge more per km than the TTC.

The average trip on the TTC is about 10 km. $0.30/km
For GO the average trip is 3okm. Clarkson to Union is 30 km and costs $7.02. $0.23/km

GO is CHEAPER per km than the TTC. They just have a fixed base fare that makes shorter trips more costly.

If both the TTC and GO switched to a $1 base fee + $0.20 per km the average rider would pay exactly the same as we do today ($3 and $7). No change in subsidy required, no change in the amount paid....other than future changes in demand because of the changing fee schedule. And then either Scarborough RT or RER would cost the same for the users.

And for the record I live > 10km from work so I would end up paying more (but would take the UPX from Dundas West so I would save about 3-7 minutes as per Google maps).
 
I don't know if this is still the plan, probably not, but when the plan was to go underground to Don Mills, they were going to make Don Mills a three track station with two centre platforms, so the centre track would be used for short turns, since there was not room for a storage track.

This could still be done to allow short turns at Don Mills, but I would think the plan is to have short turns at Lairid.
That would be a terrible plan where did you hear it? With low floor platforms you would have people crossing the tracks all the time to get to the correct train. Why add the expense of addition infrastructure (larger underground box, double the escalators and elevators, etc.) for an operation that will be completed with the pocket track.

If I recall, the only reason the pocket track was considered to be removed was when the line was going to be tunneled right to Don Mills - this would have required the station to be moved east (for the TBM extraction). At this point the Ferrand stop was removed and a pocket track could still have been kept east of the station (possibly above grade). But if they were tunneling and adding Ferrand then they would lose the pocket track. Since the line will not be tunneled all the way to Don Mills the pocket track should still be in place. Having short turns at Laird would be miss the major passenger loads from Don Mills. East of Don Mills would be the reasonable place to reduce service - especially for the length of in median to Kennedy.
 
kEiThZ was factually incorrect. GO does not charge more per km than the TTC.

He's not wrong, because he was referring specifically to Toronto passengers.

Anyways, this idea that public transit is a utility is stupid. Public transit is a public service - people who need to travel farther shouldn't be paying significantly more than people who are travelling short distances. $3.00 to travel within Toronto is a bit high but not unreasonable. $9 from Newmarket to downtown or $16 from Kitchener to downtown is very reasonable. The only two things that need fixing are (A) Go Transit travel within Toronto, which shouldn't cost any more than an equivalent TTC trip aside from airport buses, and (B) trips between the inner suburbs and the middle suburbs (Thornhill, Markham, Woodbridge, Mississauga, etc.) which shouldn't be paying a second full fare.
 
He's not wrong, because he was referring specifically to Toronto passengers.

Anyways, this idea that public transit is a utility is stupid. Public transit is a public service - people who need to travel farther shouldn't be paying significantly more than people who are travelling short distances. $3.00 to travel within Toronto is a bit high but not unreasonable. $9 from Newmarket to downtown or $16 from Kitchener to downtown is very reasonable. The only two things that need fixing are (A) Go Transit travel within Toronto, which shouldn't cost any more than an equivalent TTC trip aside from airport buses, and (B) trips between the inner suburbs and the middle suburbs (Thornhill, Markham, Woodbridge, Mississauga, etc.) which shouldn't be paying a second full fare.

I largely agree (although I am less fussed with the double fare when crossing into Toronto via local transit)......but with regards to the part I bolded...would you make the same change in other municpalities? Should a GO trip with a municipality...one that does not leave the boundaries of that municipality cost the same fare that the local transit agency sets?
 

Back
Top