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micheal_can said:
LRT, Subway... Yes.

Is there anyone who does not see that both, a multi extension of the Sheppard and Bloor lines to STC and LRT/streetcars from Eglinton, and other places are all needed?

The real question is - what order do we build them in?
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I think the one thing Tory has done really well is put the SSE, DRL, Waterfront LRT, and Eglinton LRT extensions as a bundle of main priorities for the City. Sheppard and DRL long, shorter LRT extensions to Malvern will be round 2. Province has to step up here for the DRL.

Bottom line at this stage just get building and implement a proper funding plan to build the next round and beyond
 
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OneCity said:
When did I argue the DRL benefits? You are barking to the wrong people thinking it will help the DRL cause and even if we build the SLRT you are not much closer to the DRL

You don't care about connection to SCC and no point arguing this further as it's all been said. I can respect your opinion here and just not agree whatsoever. But the desire to take Scarborough capital to build a slice of DRL is not only unrealistic, it that type of division that has taken the focus off of funding it and helping to divide the City Politically. Let's try to build together.
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I don't?

Interesting conclusion.

I support a connection that makes sense and provides value given the kind of ridership numbers we can expect.
 
syn said:
I don't?

Interesting conclusion.

I support a connection that makes sense and provides value given the kind of ridership numbers we can expect.
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Ridership has nothing to do with the transfer placement. If anything ridership is going to be higher than both Kipling and Islington. Pretty impressive. This is Scarborough's main core area, and having a transfer one stop before is absolutely poorly detailed planning. There were other "value" options to eliminate the transfer from what we have now and the subway could have gone on the RT corridor and given everyone better "value" and provided Scarborough Centre far better integration for improved future growth. But we've wasted enough time on other plans and now have Smarttrack in the way to prevent "value" as an option for either technology.
 
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syn said:
Scarborough already has transit.

Scarborough has had subway access for nearly 50 years. That's also the last time any kind of subway was built downtown.

$5 billion for a 6km one stop extension is very, very far from the best option available with limited funds.

Can we just ee-amalgamate so Tory doesn't have to worry about buying votes in Scarborough?!
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Don't feed the trolls. You're talking way too much sense but this triggers them.

This thread rehashes the same cycle over and over:

1. Someone explains the facts and based on these facts, subways to Scarborough Town Centre (and many other places by the way) isn't justified.

(I.e. Scarborough doesn't have the density and ridership to warrant subways, or other parts of the city deal with transfers just fine, or other transit lines are much more critically needed, or that funds are much too limited to warrant wasting on stupid subways anywhere in Toronto)

2.Onecity/coffey1 says some garbage that personifies the psychosis infecting this city
(I.e. Downtown media makes up facts, or all those facts are fake, or the media is out to get Scarborough, or that Scarborough deserves subways, or that Scarborough Town Centre deserves subways.. all without presenting evidence of density or ridership and ignoring the evidence that does exist)

3. Original poster points out the clear logical inconsistencies and paranoia in the arguments put forth by that person suffering from psychosis

4. Onecity/Coffey1 refuses to acknowledge the inconsistencies

Repeat.

Mods, what's the point of this?

Is this endless "Onecity/coffey1 vs Reality" debate actually serving any purpose here? Maybe that's what you should change the title of this thread to.
 
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I don't think anybody is still pushing for the transfer LRT - only a few radical Councillors who already have plenty of subway options in their Ward. The only ones who make sense are those that agree that Scarborough must be connected transfer-free with the rest of the network, but think there may be a better way of doing it.
 
pstogios said:
Don't feed the trolls. You're talking way too much sense but this triggers them.

This thread rehashes the same cycle over and over:

1. Someone explains the facts and based on these facts, subways to Scarborough Town Centre (and many other places by the way) isn't justified.

(I.e. Scarborough doesn't have the density and ridership to warrant subways, or other parts of the city deal with transfers just fine, or other transit lines are much more critically needed, or that funds are much too limited to warrant wasting on stupid subways anywhere in Toronto)

2.Onecity/coffey1 says some garbage that personifies the psychosis infecting this city
(I.e. Downtown media makes up facts, or all those facts are fake, or the media is out to get Scarborough, or that Scarborough deserves subways, or that Scarborough Town Centre deserves subways.. all without presenting evidence of density or ridership and ignoring the evidence that does exist)

3. Original poster points out the clear logical inconsistencies and paranoia in the arguments put forth by that person suffering from psychosis

4. Onecity/Coffey1 refuses to acknowledge the inconsistencies

Repeat.

Mods, what's the point of this?

Is this endless "Onecity/coffey1 vs Reality" debate actually serving any purpose here? Maybe that's what you should change the title of this thread to.
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Calm down!

The 'LRT or nothing' debate and 'Everyone in Scarborough wants a subway' rant are pathetic as well :rolleyes:
 
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nfitz said:
If it were up to council, yes. Ultimately, the province has final say - and with the likelihood of a Conservative victory, and a lack of clear policy from them on this line, I'd say that it will probably be built - but it's not a certainty.
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I've got to agree completely, save there's even a more compelling factor, the ultimate one: Funding. The Feds *have still* only committed $660,000 towards this. Is this a temporary gap to more funding? Hard to say. I'd like to to be held-over until the Infrastructure Bank is up and running, and then allow *independent* investors to consider whether it's worthy of investment or not.

Government would still participate, perhaps even underwrite the risk, but only based on a *business case* being proven. How cavalier a use of taxpayers' money could that be? In all fairness, I see many projects which should be approached in the same way. It's gets the political bias out of the decisions, and allows pragmatic business ones to proceed.
 
steveintoronto said:
I've got to agree completely, save there's even a more compelling factor, the ultimate one: Funding. The Feds *have still* only committed $660,000 towards this. Is this a temporary gap to more funding? Hard to say. I'd like to to be held-over until the Infrastructure Bank is up and running, and then allow *independent* investors to consider whether it's worthy of investment or not.

Government would still participate, perhaps even underwrite the risk, but only based on a *business case* being proven. How cavalier a use of taxpayers' money could that be? In all fairness, I see many projects which should be approached in the same way. It's gets the political bias out of the decisions, and allows pragmatic business ones to proceed.
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I could see Smarttrack being killed for a better subway having a slightly higher chance than 1. Killed outright for nothing at all or 2. Killed for some type of transfer technology before SCC. Really only the minority City "opposition" wants to see 1 & 2. The Province actually benefits financially from the operational and maintenance savings with the subway so Its a slim to none chance they cancel given the very high level of support from the Liberal and Conservatives. If costs rise that mean they have either risen for all projects and technologies or for something specific & unforeseen was discovered along McCowan tunnel and at the point other subway corridors would be re-examined.

There is a business case to be made for a subway to SCC, just not Tory's rendition. If you are comparing the RT corridor for both technologies comparing the same criteria the subway would carry the day even if shortened. Im not sure much case could be made for Smarttrack on its own even without analyzing the impact on the SSE and some redundant stations with the DRL. But its always the same subway vs. LRT argument with little mention or aim taken at the line that has forced the subway out and is adding extra highly questionable costs across the City.
 
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OneCity said:
I could see Smarttrack being killed for a better subway having a slightly higher chance than 1. Killed outright for nothing at all or 2. Killed for some type of transfer technology before SCC. Really only the minority City "opposition" wants to see 1 & 2. The Province actually benefits financially from the operational and maintenance savings with the subway so Its a slim to none chance they cancel given the very high level of support from the Liberal and Conservatives. If costs rise that mean they have either risen for all projects and technologies or for something specific & unforeseen was discovered along McCowan tunnel and at the point other subway corridors would be re-examined.

There is a business case to be made for a subway to SCC, just not Tory's rendition. If you are comparing the RT corridor for both technologies comparing the same criteria the subway would carry the day even if shortened. Im not sure much case could be made for Smarttrack on its own even without analyzing the impact on the SSE and some redundant stations with the DRL. But its always the same subway vs. LRT argument with little mention or aim taken at the line that has forced the subway out and is adding extra highly questionable costs across the City.
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With GO RER, what is the difference between the 2?
 
micheal_can said:
With GO RER, what is the difference between the 2?
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Good question. Amongst the many stops that have long been removed it was sold on the dream of a TTC fare and higher frequency than GO RER 15 minute service. If they can manage to achieve both it will have some decent value. But when you look at the extra cost of the subway being pushed out away from the RT tracks, impacting ridership to eliminate SSE intermediate stops, along with the costs of Smarttrack stations which may conflict with the DRL stations, then consider the unknown fare structure, questionable frequency, Id say its an expensive gamble. And its the sole reason we couldn't have an apples to apples subway to LRT comparison
 
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OneCity said:
Good question. Amongst the many stops that have long been removed it was sold on the dream of a TTC fare and higher frequency than GO RER 15 minute service. If they can manage to both it will have some decent value. But when you look at the extra cost of the subway being pushed out away from the RT tracks, impacting ridership to eliminate SSE intermediate stops, along with the costs of Smarttrack stations which may conflict with the DRL stations, then consider the unknown fare structure, questionable frequency, Id say its and expensive gamble. And its the sole reason we couldn't have an apples to apples subway to LRT comparison
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So, why not leave GO to the Smarttrack boondoggle. Let them run it at 15 minutes, then even 7.5 or 5 minute intervals.

Subways should go to the major sections of the city.

LRT should service the busy local routes.

Bus should complete the last mile.

Sometimes we loose sight on what each is designed to be able to do.
 
micheal_can said:
So, why not leave GO to the Smarttrack boondoggle. Let them run it at 15 minutes, then even 7.5 or 5 minute intervals.

Subways should go to the major sections of the city.

LRT should service the busy local routes.

Bus should complete the last mile.

Sometimes we loose sight on what each is designed to be able to do.
Click to expand...

Interesting. A number of divergent posters' opinions all agree on the need for independent investment/business case decisions on many of these projects. That decision wouldn't be the end-all in some cases, government could still make politically based decisions (where need is obvious, but the financial yield would be negative, say, social housing, albeit it doesn't have to be that way). I only wish the Yonge Street string was as pragmatic. https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...-richmond-hill-unfunded-planned.7404/page-338

The bottom line in all these instances is lack of funding. Ostensibly, for those who feel there is a business case made for their favoured projects, the nascent Infrastructure Bank could hold solutions.

Fingers crossed.

For the record, I'm a Centrist politically, but you'd have to be beyond stunned to not realize that Toronto's demands far exceed available funding capital. The private sector is the only source of the capital needed. Best we partner with them.
 
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