[pstogios]

Errr...no. Odd that. But *any and all* big ticket transit items should be audited. Why is that so difficult for you and others to understand?

It’s too difficult for them to understand because they don’t think rationally. They only believe we have to “respect Scarborough” and that “Downtown Media Elites hates us”. They don’t think with their heads, only populism, politics, and some perceived long-standing hatred against them.

Actually I’m not really sure why this thread even exists. These debates go around in circles endleslessly because only one side is talking about building higher-order transit based on long-established principles of ridership, density, built form, actual development and not just potential for it, etc.

We can talk about how Yonge-Bloor is bursting at the seams, we can talk about how Line 1 way over capacity, we can talk about how building the SSE will only exacerbate those problems. We can talk about how neighbourhoods like Liberty Village, Humber Bay Shores, etc, are absolutely booming yet under-served by transit. We can talk about all of those things... and they will never be convinced because they don’t care. All of that isn’t Respect For Scarborough and all of that is the problem of the Elites that have been screwing then for decades. That’s all they believe.

 

[steveintoronto]

lol...well, there's one good outcome from this: Calling a throw-together jam gig "The Downtown Elites". (And there really are some excellent players in it). It'll be an 'Audit-Tory Delight'.

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm just skeptical that Doug can stay in power for more than 4 years yet alone 8. Scandals follow him and his brother (Robs ex is suing him atm). In 4 years though whoever is coming in may say this is insane we need that money for the drl, let's just keep the RT afloat and send the money to the drl. In four years downtown and yonge will have boomed even more. In four years the yonge line will be even more over capacity. In 4 years they may want to go ahead with the yonge extension to buy votes. The DRL is needed. The danforth extension is a luxury. Luxuries can be cancelled.

This is a misunderstanding of how politics works. I've said this before and been lambasted on this forum. But Toronto gets shafted on infrastructure investment because it can be taken for granted as Liberal/NDP bastion. But that changes a bit with this election. The tories have made solid gains in suburban 416. If you think the tories are going to let their suburban beachhead in the outer 416 wither away because the already Liberal voting areas are gaining population, you have a surprise coming.

They will build the SSE first. That is Scarborough's reward for voting PC. And if the Liberals do get back in, four years down the road, they will finish the SSE because they've now seen how many seats dithering cost them. The DRL will happen after. Because it impacts suburban voters. Not because of downtown residents. That's just how politics works.

You shouldn't despair too much. Nobody really cares about most of the blue voting rural ridings either. They are in the exact same position as the "downtown elites".

 

[sixrings]

This is a misunderstanding of how politics works. I've said this before and been lambasted on this forum. But Toronto gets shafted on infrastructure investment because it can be taken for granted as Liberal/NDP bastion. But that changes a bit with this election. The tories have made solid gains in suburban 416. If you think the tories are going to let their suburban beachhead in the outer 416 wither away because the already Liberal voting areas are gaining population, you have a surprise coming.

They will build the SSE first. That is Scarborough's reward for voting PC. And if the Liberals do get back in, four years down the road, they will finish the SSE because they've now seen how many seats dithering cost them. The DRL will happen after. Because it impacts suburban voters. Not because of downtown residents. That's just how politics works.

You shouldn't despair too much. Nobody really cares about most of the blue voting rural ridings either. They are in the exact same position as the "downtown elites".

your whole post is based on the premise that actual construction on this project starts before the new premier is in office. I will admit that if it is well under way there is no turning back. But I am far from convinced it will be on its way yet alone well on its way.

 

[kEiThZ]

your whole post is based on the premise that actual construction on this project starts before the new premier is in office. I will admit that if it is well under way there is no turning back. But I am far from convinced it will be on its way yet alone well on its way.

And your assumptions are premised on the idea that his Scarborough MPPs will be happy to run in 2022 with no SSE under construction. What do you think the chances of that are?

The one thing the Fords are associated with is subways. Imagine what it does to the Ford brand if they can't even deliver one.

 

[sixrings]

And your assumptions are premised on the idea that his Scarborough MPPs will be happy to run in 2022 with no SSE under construction. What do you think the chances of that are?

The one thing the Fords are associated with is subways. Imagine what it does to the Ford brand if they can't even deliver one.

You assume that Fords brand wont be messed up by law suits, affairs, this, that or whatever. He may not be a brand in 4 years. The father was the businessman, these Fords are just silver spooned drop outs with catchy slogans.

 

[kEiThZ]

You assume that Fords brand wont be messed up by law suits, affairs, this, that or whatever. He may not be a brand in 4 years. The father was the businessman, these Fords are just silver spooned drop outs with catchy slogans.

I am no Ford fan, but it's some truly ideological goggles to not see that he connects with some people. And how much do you think lawsuits and affairs would change any of that? On the other hand, if he doesn't get shovels in the ground in Scarborough in 4 years, those seats are definitely at risk. I don't get why this is such a far-fetched idea to some.

All politics is local, as they say. And if you've railed about "downtown elites" holding you back from subways, and you don't deliver when you are in power? Well, you just became that "downtown elite".

 

[sixrings]

I am no Ford fan, but it's some truly ideological goggles to not see that he connects with some people. And how much do you think lawsuits and affairs would change any of that? On the other hand, if he doesn't get shovels in the ground in Scarborough in 4 years, those seats are definitely at risk. I don't get why this is such a far-fetched idea to some.

All politics is local, as they say. And if you've railed about "downtown elites" holding you back from subways, and you don't deliver when you are in power? Well, you just became that "downtown elite".

anyone in these positions have friends in power. Ford is no different. Wynne had the Prime Minister behind her. That didn't change anything. Ford screws up and no one will be able to save him.

 

[syn]

Some comparison:

https://www.insauga.com/why-doesnt-mississauga-have-a-subway

Interesting to see how Mississauga forged ahead and grew, despite no subway connection nor rapid transit connection to the TTC.

It's almost as though a 'city centre' can grow without a subway connection downtown.

Fascinating.

 

[Streety McCarface]

All I know is that on my street in the last decade there has been 1 condo built and another under construction. And I live at Bathurst and Eglinton. When I go downtown there must have been 50 buildings built in the same time if not more. Somehow though the DRL is not a priority over Scarborough simply because its a political football. Downtown is booming, Yonge is booming. Scarborough like my area is building but nothing in comparison to downtown. Even if we wanted to compare to less downtown areas then Liberty village is booming as well as the humber bay area (no one other than Jennifer are even talking about a DRL west). We should be building subways where people are choosing to live. not building them hoping that one day they will live there. Everyone liked to mock TC for being a gentrification plan more than a transit plan but this danforth scarborough extension takes the cake.

DRL is the priority over Scarborough transit but is taking much longer because it's a much more challenging project with less design work done than the SSE (due to prioritization under previous governments). The SSE may be perceived as prioritized because it arguably addresses state of good repair for the existing system. You can't just take mass transit away from 50K daily riders ethically and without a political shitshow. Like it or not, Scarborough has waited its turn. North York got the Sheppard Subway, Etobicoke got the TYSSE and is getting Eglinton (an improvement for most trips anywhere) and Finch LRTs, Midtown is getting the Crosstown, etc. Downtown is seeing plenty of other improvements in the meantime (new signaling, new trains, enhanced GO service to everywhere, safer platforms at Union Station, PATH improvements, streetcar improvements (KSP, Cherry Streetcar, New Streetcars, better corridors (even though a lot are botched), better streetscape, etc)) while the existing system gets its shit together with accessibility requirements, state of good repair.

Comparing the SSE to the DRL is like comparing apples to oranges, especially since the SSE is a much easier project to build.

 

[steveintoronto]

Etobicoke got the TYSSE

?

 

[sixrings]

I didn't know that downtown was clamoring for go trains to everywhere. Glad they can check that off their bucket list. Oh and streetcars, streetcars, streetcars. That's great. I love how PATH extension is acceptable as a transit alternative to downtown while the thought of bike lanes are laughable to the suburbs.

 

[Hopkins123]

Interesting to see how Mississauga forged ahead and grew, despite no subway connection nor rapid transit connection to the TTC.

It's almost as though a 'city centre' can grow without a subway connection downtown.

Fascinating.

Tell that to North York, Etobicoke, Vaughan and Richmond Hill, all with 'centres' anchored or soon-to-be anchored by, guess what, subways.

 

[Hopkins123]

Some comparison:

https://www.insauga.com/why-doesnt-mississauga-have-a-subway

Yes, why doesn't the 7th largest city in the country not have a subway extension to the second largest and busiest commuter hub in the GTA after Union already?

 

[syn]

Tell that to North York, Etobicoke, Vaughan and Richmond Hill, all with 'centres' anchored or soon-to-be anchored by, guess what, subways.

Yes and Mississauga has outstripped all of them with no subway in sight.

Are you going to tell us that Mississauga is a transit paradise compared to Scarborough?