[DENTROBATE54]

Oh, and yes, Dentrobate, the 190 is a massive success. This is undeniable. It saves a huge amount of time. It never takes over 30 minutes, though. If it ran on the 401, it'd be useless, not highly used, because its purpose is to serve people along Sheppard, not shuttle people directly to STC.

In contrast to 191/192? These route largely along highway systems and are well used. The 190 shouldn't even be classified as an express route since it serves virtually every major stop en route. Similar routes I have qualms with are 95E which serves everything east of Leslie and 39E which serves everything east of Don Mills. The old neighbourhoods surrounding the Yonge corridor of course comprise more car-dependent than transit-oriented residents making their distinction as express zones senseless. I don't see why even along express routes it takes nearly an hour to get from anywhere east of Kennedy to the Yonge Line. If we're supposed to consider every bus stop that has a handful of people in contrast to several thousands who need direct point A-B in a hurry, how on earth is that benefiting the majority of riders? See why I pushed for the LRT now? You're trying to make it seem like there's a single type of rider through the Sheppard corridors when in reality demand varies by area.

*I* don't think people in Malvern are worth more, but the city does,

Gee a handful of mall-visitors at Allanford mean more to you than 100,000 permanent residents in Malvern, why am I not surprised !

Nielson buses can run along the 401, which is virtually never gridlocked around there, and even if there is a bit of traffic, it'll still save plenty of time compared to trundling through Centenary hospital.

The biggest issue is getting to Neilson Road, in entirity. You'd be cutting off about 6-700 metres of service south of the 401, inclusive of excluding Centenary/Centennial/UTSC bound riders. Our emphasis should be to expand the system outwards to nodes thoughout Scarborough, be it via TC or something else, not assume everyone is STC-bound.

The 96E is the best of the E routes for being an effective limited-stop service, but should run at more times of the day. It stops only at Wilson Station, Dufferin, Dubray (for two high schools), Keele, Jane, Weston, Islington and local from there to Humber College.

If only more express routes followed this model. Only intersecting concession roads or special circumstantial stops should be recognized, otherwise there's no point to it.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If only more express routes followed this model. Only intersecting concession roads or special circumstantial stops should be recognized, otherwise there's no point to it.

So, you think more routes should follow this model even though you criticize the 190 for being a wildly successful implementation of it...

 

[DENTROBATE54]

^ Even so, on average a trip to Don Mills takes at least 23 minutes. Why is there not a faster way?

If we're to look at what stops see the most traffic, Kennedy and Victoria Park outperform the other concessions en route- Pharmacy, Warden and Brichmount- all of which can be handled by the 85. The special circumstantial stop, Allenford, is only 300m from Kennedy and would stay only for the sake of the retirement home (again the 85 could handle this).

So why have a Rocket route doubling as a local service route? The stopless trip through the industrial park south of Sheppard kills time as well. MT and YRT have done a superlative job of routing buses short distance via highways, shaving at least 5 mins off commutes. Similar could be done here via Progress, the 401 and Kennedy off-ramp.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Dentrobate.

Look, the purpose of the 190 is *not* to take people directly to STC, it's to serve everything along the way, and a majority of people get on or off betwen VP and Kennedy. Yeah, obviously, running it along the 401 would be faster, but it would also be completely useless since it wouldn't pick up or drop off anybody along the way.

 

[CDL.TO]

The term is limited-stop service. Not non-stop service. They serve different roles, as Scarberian has pointed out.

 

[unimaginative2]

He does raise an interesting point, though: with the tremendous success of the 190, there might be a market for a Don Mills-STC express service along the 401 in addition to the existing limited-stop Sheppard service. It would need shoulder bus lanes to be useful, but it would shave a lot of time off the trip in a very busy corridor.

It's one of several routes that I think would benefit from short runs along the 401. Morningside and Neilson would save their riders huge amounts of time if they ran express to Scarborough Town. Another idea could be a West Hill-UTSC-STC route via Military Trail and the 401. Not all of these will necessarily work, but some of them sure will if people are aware of them and their advantages.

The TTC recognizes that a good percentage of its riders are going to the subway. There's no reason why routes shouldn't be designed to get people there quickly when the distances are substantial. I'm not talking about express routes that run across the city. These are practical short routes that could save people as much as 10 minutes each way, every day. That's a huge benefit for a minuscule capital cost. I didn't really come up with most of this stuff. A certain infamous ex-forumer posted ideas like these years ago, especially the Neilson express route.

Adam Giambrone has said that the TTC is seriously examining routes just like these. They were supposed to have been announced with other service improvements Suburban bus routes are one area where the TTC is a real leader. They're relatively reliable, frequent, and run late into the evening. I hope that they keep this up and improve on it.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Dentrobate wants to replace the 190 with such a route, not supplement the 190. The TTC could run a bus along the 401 direct from Fairview to STC but I don't think it'd get more than 2000 riders a day. To keep decent frequency on both 190 branches, we'd be running more, but less full, buses. But if we're gonna go around the city making custom routes for every one or two thousand people, it's not outside the realm of possibility. There's no real harm in adding a multitude of express-ish options, but only if local service does not suffer.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

The term is limited-stop service. Not non-stop service. They serve different roles, as Scarberian has pointed out.

Do any of you ride the 190 frequently? My description of pick-up/drop-off patterns is correct. If buses ran in the centre lane for most of the trip, and left minor stops to the adjacent also Don Mills-bound 85 bus, trips could be as rapid as 15 minutes.

Yeah, obviously, running it along the 401 would be faster, but it would also be completely useless since it wouldn't pick up or drop off anybody along the way.

Does 191, 192 pick-up/drop-off along their ways? I'd marvel at any route that can get from Rexdale to Dundas within 10 minutes. Since the 190 is interim for the Sheppard extension it's not outrageous to expect subwaylike speed and frequency.

He does raise an interesting point, though: with the tremendous success of the 190, there might be a market for a Don Mills-STC express service along the 401 in addition to the existing limited-stop Sheppard service. It would need shoulder bus lanes to be useful, but it would shave a lot of time off the trip in a very busy corridor.

Thank you! Why must every east-west route through Scarborough take at least one hour to interface with a subway line? Again the 905's leading the charge for highway integration into their transit networks. A city as wide as Toronto (47kms) shouldn't be limited to buses that stop 6-8 times per concession road. Maybe we should cancel the 85 bus since some people expect an express route (whose priority is to provide nodal coverage) to instead redundantly duplicate the Sheppard East's service .

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Do any of you ride the 190 frequently? My description of pick-up/drop-off patterns is correct. If buses ran in the centre lane for most of the trip, and left minor stops to the adjacent also Don Mills-bound 85 bus, trips could be as rapid as 15 minutes.

I've probably riden it more often than anyone else on this forum...it became a preferred way for me to get home (I'd get off at Kennedy).

Your description of the 190's ridership pattern is incorrect because a majority of 190 riders are not going straight from Fairview to STC - therefore, a majority of riders would very much not appreciate the removal of the 190. Some riders would appreciate a direct bus between STC and Fairview...I think we should put more rocket/express buses everywhere, though.

The 190 isn't redundant - both the 85 and 190 are completely overcrowded during rush hour. The Sheppard extension is for people along Sheppard, not to take people directly to STC.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

^Okay if the frequency of Route 85 was increased, perhaps by moving the short turn from Meadowvale to Neilson, would it then not be possible for the 190 to just serve STC-Agincourt-VP-Fairview eliminating all other stops? Alternatively you could put the 85 into express mode west of Kennedy, speeding up the commutes of far less people (by your own admission less than 20,000 commute east of Agincourt).

My point is the double-team is aggrivating to anyone whose final destination is neither NYCC nor STC, but just apart of a much longer total commute. I recall a time when 58/59 buses went all the way to the Yonge line but were scaled back to Lawrence West as the service in betwix the subways was overkill and prolonged wait times for Malton/Weston bound riders. Why should outlying areas have to wait an hour for one bus to arrive when corridors get excesses of 5 every 2-3 minutes? Because every bus stops at virtually every stop, even alleged limited stopping routes.

 

[rpgr]

Detro, I don't think you've ridden the 190 during rush hour.

It already serves just the Agincourt (which includes Birchmount, Kennedy and Allenford), VP, Don Mills crowd with just a couple more stops at Pharmacy and the very valid stop at Warden. Just because you don't personally want to stop there doesn't mean they aren't trip generators at differnt parts of the day. Agincourt is all about the residentials living there, Pharmacy is a major generator during school time, Warden and VP are major transfer points. The only one of those stops you could conceivably eliminate is Allanford but that stop is there for the old folks home specifically (remember the social responsibility part of public trans?).

 

[CDL.TO]

Doesn't Allenford serve Agincourt Mall better than Kennedy?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes...Allanford is often a busy stop because it's the way to the Allanford neighbourhood south of Sheppard, to Agincourt Mall (including the No Frills which is metres away), to the library, etc. Allanford is busier than Pharmacy. Really, if the 190 is changed at all, it should be to add a stop at Consumers, not take away any stops.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Just because you don't personally want to stop there doesn't mean they aren't trip generators at differnt parts of the day.

Alright, I get it. I only brought it up because someone here believed it is comparable to speed to the 191/192 buses. Only few parts of the city have express buses routing so close by to highway systems and to not utilize them seems futile.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If it ran on the highway, no one would be able to use it.