Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Line 4 is not zoned for high-density mixed-use development along significant portions of the corridor, and the extents of the 1 km buffer are definitely not zoned in that manner.
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syn
Senior Member
That's not going to happen. Here is the city's take:
"As documented in Toronto's Official Plan, the long term urban structure of Scarborough is envisioned to be dominated by Neighbourhoods and Employment Areas. The Official Plan protects the character of neighbourhoods from change, and there is little desire to increase density in these areas."
sixrings
Senior Member
NIMBYS want the subways because they increase their home values but the NIMBYS don't want rezoning because then there might be condominium shade into their back yards. Plus more condos would mean more cars.
Towered
Superstar
Rainforest
Senior Member
The main source of subway riders is feeder routes, not local density.
SSE will have decent ridership, with or without rezoning.
Sheppard subway extension would have less ridership than SSE, even with extensive rezoning around every station. There isn't as many riders wishing to go towards North York as towards downtown.
I agree that areas around subway stations should be rezoned for high density, whenever a subway extension is happening. High density is an added benefit in that case. I don't agree with density being the main purpose of subway extension; you just won't get enough walk-in riders. The total population and the transit usage in the area served by the feeder routes are the keys.
SSE will have decent ridership, with or without rezoning.
Sheppard subway extension would have less ridership than SSE, even with extensive rezoning around every station. There isn't as many riders wishing to go towards North York as towards downtown.
I agree that areas around subway stations should be rezoned for high density, whenever a subway extension is happening. High density is an added benefit in that case. I don't agree with density being the main purpose of subway extension; you just won't get enough walk-in riders. The total population and the transit usage in the area served by the feeder routes are the keys.
syn
Senior Member
I completely agree.
This is why we should go back to the transit building strategy that implements appropriate transit infrastructure where it's needed, rather than wanted.
sixrings
Senior Member
If it's all based on bus transfers then why should Lawrence get a station. Couldn't the Lawrence bus riders transfer to the DRL where it would have picked up more bus riders on route.
syn
Senior Member
Interesting question.
Suburban stations have to rely on 'feeder' bus routes because there isn't enough density (employment and residential) to justify their existence otherwise.
What if they built a signal priority Eglinton East LRT and sent feeder buses to those stations, giving all riders a true transfer free route to the Yonge Line or OL and a Sheppard East extension to STC?
How about Express Bus connections to new GO-RER stations?
OneCity
Senior Member
I fully agree with the three stop elevated subway extension for the SSE would have been highly beneficial to meet both connectivity and future growth needs.
But hacking in an LRT to a short subway stub on Sheppard was closer to madness, the Sheppard extension to Malvern will be anything but. Moreso if connecting to the EELRT to provide a well connected network
I also agree with you that it should be zoned for greater density but actually dont see it as the issue as it stands. For Sheppard there is already more density around Vic Park, Kennedy, and Markham without transit then we have seen on most other lines that were built. Also there are even many current proposals for density in those areas. Zoning will be easy to modify further in these area once the subway is finally extended, density intensifies and its required. For the SSE it wont be an issue at any of the stops. McCowan/Sheppard will also see zoning changes that will change the Sheppard landscape even further.
For some reason many pick on Scarborough for density yet we have some of the most random density even being built today. See Lawrence and Birchmount where no rapid transit is even proposed. Yet strangely we see wealthier areas on the existing subway lines that continually fighting density and receiving far less flak to say the least. The notion Scarborough has a density issue is not a real thing and I highly doubt it ever will be once we finally extend the subways across Central Scarborough.
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Rainforest
Senior Member
SSE will pass under Lawrence & McCowan en route to STC, anyway. Then, why not build a station there? People riding the Lawrence bus from east of McCowan, will reach the SSE Lawrence station about 25 min sooner than they will reach the DRL Lawrence station.
Sure, if DRL / OL gets extended north of Eglinton, it will get its own Lawrence station.
kali
Active Member
@OneCity I don't think it makes sense to spend so much money just to avoid a Sheppard LRT>subway transfer. Most people using Sheppard in that area will probably be transferring anyway, but south onto the RL/OL. Anyway, all of this is irrelevant because Sheppard will just have to deal with having a stub line for the next few decades because we didn't do it properly the first time (should have been a mixed tunneled/elevated/at grade LRT) and there's not enough money to fix it.
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OneCity
Senior Member
We would still be adding a transfer upon a transfer for the majority. Bus to LRT to stubway for most that dont live directly near an LRT stop. Bus to subway makes life alot easier for many elderly, handicapped, families with small children and for the easy of use for everyone to even consider pubic transit. The location of the transfer really matters when expanding a network. A family from Malvern North simply takes one bus to the subway to get to the Yonge line. These are far commutes for many so every bit of convenience helps current riders and to attract more riders
The cost extra is actually negligible long term and would it have cost far less if they kept building decades ago. Thankfully there will be no wasted decades squabbling about a transfer with the line residing at the Provincial level. The bigger cost has been wasting time looking for ways to cut corners on key details that greatly dimishes the legacy of the network. Toronto made this an acceptable habit to a fault. Those days are done
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kali
Active Member
No, I meant the pattern would be bus to LRT and then south to OL/RL. Both subway and LRT involve two transfers for those going downtown. Frankly, the bus to LRT to stubway pattern doesn't matter. Very few riders along the Sheppard East corridor are heading to the other line 4 stations. Sheppard is just an express shuttle to Yonge for the vast majority of riders. Doesn't make sense to waste so much money on a subway to ease the commutes of a very small number of riders.
lol if a line with as much political points as the SSE is taking forever to build, I wouldn't hold my breath for Sheppard.
lol if a line with as much political points as the SSE is taking forever to build, I wouldn't hold my breath for Sheppard.
OneCity
Senior Member
I get the point with the OL north but it still creates a inconvenient and avoidable transfer to a stub of subway for those continuing west. Not going to happen unless the stub could be converted into light rail. Many have doubts technically and politically. The City will grow drastically in the coming decades the line will not be a waste whatsoever long term. Unlike the RT.
Further there actually is no negative politics on Sheppard that will impede its progress as next up in the pipeline aside from natural progression of election cycles stepping it forward. Both local Provincial Liberals and Conservatives heavily support the line. The surrounding municipal support is unanimous for all parties all the way thru Malvern. 95% of the opposition to Central Scarborough subways resided from the outside Councillors in Torontos amalgamated City that had their own agendas. The Province looks at the greater network as a whole when branching out, while the City looked at the lines in smaller territorial lens with no capital resources to build anything themselves. Those days are done, and will only see a bigger push once as the SSE proceeds to construction.
Many here on UT argued that the SSE would never be built, yet even with the political cat claws ripping out all the stops in Torontos council here we are heading into construction. Now that the Province mainly controls these decisons Sheppard will never see anything remotely close to that level of political insanity against the vast majority of voters who live here.
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Jaye101
Active Member
A Sheppard Extension would connect Line 2 at McCowan, GO at Agincourt, Ontario Line at Don Mills, Line 1 Yonge, and potentially Line 1 University in a westward extension...Connecting Scarborough with York University and Yorkdale with a quick transfer.
This line would not be underused. I actually see enormous potential for the corridor. To be honest when David Miller was mayor I supported the LRT but now seeing how fast the city is growing, and how slow the progress is on these things I think pursuing LRT WEST of McCowan is irresponsible on Sheppard. But that's just my opinion.
This line would not be underused. I actually see enormous potential for the corridor. To be honest when David Miller was mayor I supported the LRT but now seeing how fast the city is growing, and how slow the progress is on these things I think pursuing LRT WEST of McCowan is irresponsible on Sheppard. But that's just my opinion.
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