[44 North]

I don’t know the technical stuff between the new LFLRVs and Transit City Outllooks. But could the new streetcars run on the SRT guideway without it having to be significantly rebuilt? If so, that would be pretty good - for Scarborough in general, but also to tie in with SmartTrack. And in a way it would be a first for Toronto to have a true grade-separated rapid transit streetcar line; somewhat like the Kennedy-STC corridor was originally planned for.

 

[quicksilver]

Sure, nothing wrong at all.

But an elevated linear park, is going to cost the parks department real $ to maintain the concrete structure. And is the cost of that, worth the benefit.

Might it not be better, to take down the structure, and then have a liner park at ground surface from West Highland Creek (west of Midland station) to Scarborough Centre, with pedestrian crossings at Borough Drive, Brimely, and Midland?

How does one maintain a concrete structure? If this is a question of snow removal, wouldn't that happen at ground level or above?

What if it costs more to demolish than maintain? By the way, this is largely why the Rideau Canal still exists. Once it was no longer commercially useful, Canada wanted to demolish the canal. But since it cost more to do so, it has been maintained for pleasure craft.

Clearly, not all of the current SRT route has potential for a park. The area around Atlantic Packaging is yuck, perhaps dangerous to breath. But what about the section towards STC? Why is the idea of investigating the potential of a park so offensive? Parks are good, no? It would be a false dichotomy to suggest that building a park here means that another area in Toronto must go parkless. But ok, no park. How about a landfill instead? Would that be more appropriate for this part of Toronto?

 

[nfitz]

How does one maintain a concrete structure? If this is a question of snow removal...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_maintenance

 

[howl]

I don’t know the technical stuff between the new LFLRVs and Transit City Outllooks. But could the new streetcars run on the SRT guideway without it having to be significantly rebuilt? If so, that would be pretty good - for Scarborough in general, but also to tie in with SmartTrack. And in a way it would be a first for Toronto to have a true grade-separated rapid transit streetcar line; somewhat like the Kennedy-STC corridor was originally planned for.

The plan for the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT was to take down the structure, because it cost too much to maintain, and run the LRT along the same alignment on the surface, with new bridges at the road crossings. That was the most cost-effective option.

 

[nfitz]

The plan for the Eglinton-Scarborough LRT was to take down the structure, because it cost too much to maintain, and run the LRT along the same alignment on the surface, with new bridges at the road crossings. That was the most cost-effective option.

No ... the plan was to move the station at Kennedy, rebuild the curve at Ellesmere, and extend the existing stations.

 

[quicksilver]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_maintenance

Hey cool, a wikipedia link. That always represents a well thought out response. If the "bridge" is not salted, is there still the requirement for ongoing use of ground penetrating radar? If there are just bodies and bikes trundling along instead of SRT train cars, is there an expectation that "the bridge" might not deteriorate as fast as previously forecast?

 

[nfitz]

Hey cool, a wikipedia link. That always represents a well thought out response. If the "bridge" is not salted, is there still the requirement for ongoing use of ground penetrating radar? If there are just bodies and bikes trundling along instead of SRT train cars, is there an expectation that "the bridge" might not deteriorate as fast as previously forecast?

The point is that structures require maintenance.

A structure like this may make sense in a dense populated area with a lot of foot traffic.

But I don't even see much foot traffic on Ellesmere on the rare occasion I've walked down it. Most seem to be just waking to the bus stop rather than walking down the street.

Go on streetview - you can easily see many more pedestrians on the High Line, than you do on Ellesmere. But then go check adjacent 10th Avenue - there's more pedestrians in front of a few stores than you see on the entire length of Ellesmere from Midland to McCowan!

 

[quicksilver]

Go on streetview - you can easily see many more pedestrians on the High Line, than you do on Ellesmere.

Was it possible to see the pedestrians on the High Line park from Google before the High Line park was created?

 

[nfitz]

Was it possible to see the pedestrians on the High Line park from Google before the High Line park was created?

It was possible to see many pedestrians on Tenth Avenue adjacent to the High Line before the park was created.

You don't see this on Ellesmere.

The whole point, is this kind of expense in such an area is completely asinine. A linear park can simply be created once the structure is removed, and will be far easier to maintain.

 

[quicksilver]

It was possible to see many pedestrians on Tenth Avenue adjacent to the High Line before the park was created.

You don't see this on Ellesmere.

The whole point, is this kid of expense in such an area is completely asinine. A linear park can simply be created once the structure is removed, and will be far easier to maintain.

I continue to suspect there is more expense in demolition and removal than in non-demolition and non-removal. You could equate that with the capital expense of a park project. Liabilities aside, operating costs of a park whether on the ground or elevated should be similar, especially if a ramp allowed a plow truck to drive into the park to clear snow. The corporate sponsorship opportunities, I think, would be more if stations at McCowan and STC were repurposed instead of demolished.

 

[nfitz]

Liabilities aside, operating costs of a park whether on the ground or elevated should be similar, especially if a ramp allowed a plow truck to drive into the park to clear snow.

Very different. The structure isn't designed for application of salt, so you'd have to find a different deicier. And what about irrigation? Water runs off pretty easily from flowerbeds at ground surface - but what about on the concrete guideway? It's not like it's steel with holes everywhere. And then how do the volunteers even get the water up there? On the High Line, you just run it out of a window or a door of an adjacent apartment. This won't work in Scarborough - I'd think the city would have to be paying for that.

And then there's the key issue - how many people would use such a feature? Is there a lot of pedestrians at Midland and Ellesmere? What kind of destinations are there?

 

[quicksilver]

Very different. The structure isn't designed for application of salt, so you'd have to find a different deicier. And what about irrigation? Water runs off pretty easily from flowerbeds at ground surface - but what about on the concrete guideway? It's not like it's steel with holes everywhere. And then how do the volunteers even get the water up there? On the High Line, you just run it out of a window or a door of an adjacent apartment. This won't work in Scarborough - I'd think the city would have to be paying for that.

And then there's the key issue - how many people would use such a feature? Is there a lot of pedestrians at Midland and Ellesmere? What kind of destinations are there?

Your questions are valid. It's the unending refrain of "This won't work in Scarborough" that is disheartening sometimes. It threatens to become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I'd sand rather than salt. The guideway was already engineered to move water through its structure down to the surface or it wouldn't have lasted as long as it has. There actually are "holes everywhere."

Getting the water up there for irrigation would be better handled by rain and pipe rather than by volunteers with buckets. I don't think designers would look to the downtown latte-sipping elitists or the Mink Mile for inspiration. "Peter Kuitenbrouwer: Three years ago $20M was spent planting London Plane trees along Bloor. Now almost half are dead"

 

[nfitz]

I don't think designers would look to the downtown latte-sipping elitists ...

Is it necessary to be so horridly rude? Why insult and bully people based on where they live or what they drink?!?

It's a poor idea because the population densities are so low - much of the area isn't even residential.

Whose going to pay to rehabilitate what is essentially a massive bridge when it get's to 40 or 50 years old?

 

[ehlow]

Your questions are valid. It's the unending refrain of "This won't work in Scarborough" that is disheartening sometimes. It threatens to become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I'd sand rather than salt. The guideway was already engineered to move water through its structure down to the surface or it wouldn't have lasted as long as it has. There actually are "holes everywhere."

Getting the water up there for irrigation would be better handled by rain and pipe rather than by volunteers with buckets. I don't think designers would look to the downtown latte-sipping elitists or the Mink Mile for inspiration. "Peter Kuitenbrouwer: Three years ago $20M was spent planting London Plane trees along Bloor. Now almost half are dead"

You don't enjoy a good latte? The Starbucks in Scarborough Town Centre looks like a nice place to sip on a latte.

 

[quicksilver]

Is it necessary to be so horridly rude? Why insult and bully people based on where they live or what they drink?!?

Hey amigo, sorry if you felt bullied. Admittedly, not everyone gets my humour. You may not have noticed but there are those here that actually self-identify as "downtown latte-sipping elitists," and good for them.

[video=youtube;2VRSAVDlpDI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VRSAVDlpDI[/video]

Some of my favourite people are downtown latte-sipping elitists. Urban Toronto is a wonderful forum for debate comprised of all sorts.