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I remain deeply paranoid that the Fords are still looking for a way to start ripping out streetcar lines, so seeing this "expert" opinion expressed in that direction gives me a bit of a pit in my stomach.

Still, obviously Stintz and co., who take their marching orders from the Mayor, were unmoved by Gunn's efforts so I suppose things are relatively safe as far as the streetcars are concerned.

On the whole, I don't from the article get the impression Gunn is super in-touch with the needs of the booming Toronto region circa 2011. When he left the TTC in 1999 a management-type approach to the system was probably adequate. For one thing, many of the neighbourhoods whose residents are now overwhelming streetcar lines didn't exist yet!

Given the astonishing pressures population growth is putting on the TTC now, massive expansion is required in one form or another. This is why I am a bit agnostic on, for example, the Eglinton line as long as something is built in some form. We need a much bigger transit system, and that goal is more important than the details.
 
Gunn did face a very different TTC. In the 1990s the biggest problem was plummeting ridership. In the early 1990s ridership fell by about 20%. In such circumstances, focusing on state of good repair makes sense, you need to win riders back to the system.

Since Gunn's day, ridership is up by more than 100 million trips per year. On a system that's about the same size. Our issue today is capacity.
 
I think Gunn missed the point of the two different gauges. Metrolinx is making a bulk buy for LRT in Toronto, Mississauga, Waterloo, Ottawa – that’s where the standard gauge thing comes in. if Metrolinx wants, they can start moving trains around to meet demand. Plus, you can buy off-the-shelf stuff in 40 years if you need to replace things, and you can probably contract out maintenance to CP/CN/Amtrak. Way better to do that, than to purchase LRT built to Toronto gauges. I think the LRTs are also designed so the trucks can be swapped out if needs be to Toronto gauge.

The low-floor streetcar bit, I get where he’s coming from, but that’s one of those things where it was the best of many bad alternatives. Subway with greater capacity would mean that you run fewer during the day, which doesn’t really help in terms of services, and much higher upfront costs to purchase fewer. Buses carry too few people, so you’d have insane number of buses trying to provide frequent service and lots of drivers to hire as a result. LRT comes down the middle. Not great, but whatever. (Also applies to replacing on-street streetcars with buses. Doesn’t really work out unless you put the buses on their own lanes, which means a lot of construction and traffic enforcement to make it happen. Plus, more streetcars means more spares and cheaper purchases of replacement parts when they eventually start failing).

The nice thing about building a huge-ass tunnel is that you can rezone all of Eglinton to high density mixed use in 10 years’ time and secure financing maybe 20 years from now to flip it all to subway. But no one will ever say that publicly because the councillor/mpp/mp would shit bricks and then everything would get stopped. No one in Forest Hill would ever knowingly permit residential mixed use towers along Eglinton.

He definitely called it on the TTC restaffing their infrastructure unit to do what Metrolinx is mandated to do with a fraction of the budget and resources.

Also, last comment is a classic old man comment. I used this thing for a week. There was a stain when I was there. Therefore the entire system is crap. These kids today.
 
Also, last comment is a classic old man comment. I used this thing for a week. There was a stain when I was there. Therefore the entire system is crap. These kids today.
It was merely an aside ... however am I not the only one who has noticed platforms - particularly at the far ends - and in corners of Mezzanines, that looke as though they are seldom washed?
 
I think that Rob Ford wanted David Gunn initially was because of his streetcar remarks, but did a 180° turnaround with his remarks on putting the Eglinton Crosstown all underground, the Sheppard remarks, and a host of other remarks. I don't think he expected that. Wonder if Rob is looking for an "expert" who will be on his side?
 
I totally see Gunn's point about how the Eglinton line makes no sense. The only reason Eglinton doesn't make sense was because it was a tunnel/surface LRT hybrid that basically became an all-tunnelled LRT subway. If it had been planned as a SUBWAY from the get go, it would have been cheaper because as he pointed out, subway rolling stock is cheaper than LRVs. That said, we already have this huge LRV order so the Brothers Ford couldn't change the vehicle purchase, so the next best thing is just using already ordered brand new LRVs underground. As long as it's underground, it's basically a subway. I really don't think the capacity on Eglinton will be too low due to the vehicle choice. And if Eglinton does get busy? Extend Sheppard further west and east. If that doesn't help? Extend St. Clair. Build a Finch line. Build a Lawrence line. (I'm talking about LRTs here--but they don't necessarily have to be underground).

There's also the possibility of the GO Crosstown line. And just making the GO train more accessible to Torontonians.

I don't think Bloor-Danforth is overly crowded at this point. It's busy, yes, but it's not Yonge line busy. And with more east-west lines, the importance of any one of them will diminish. Plus the DRL too!
 
Why it wasn't subway to begin with is beyond me.
Here's a really wild and crazy idea.........................seeing it's an extention of the SRT why not just make it a SkyTrain line?
It would save mega bucks by not having to redo the entire SRT. Just lengthen the stations, allow the tracks to handle MK11 and put in the heating mechanisms. WAY cheaper than redoing an entire line, you wouldn't have to build a new maintenance/control facility, and SkyTrain cars have longer life spans than LRT. SkyTrain cars also have much faster pick up, mauverability, inckine abilities than LRT.
They can also run at higher frequencies than LRT due to much faster de/acceleration. They would be cheaper to build as not needing the overhead wires constructed.
Condidering this is an underground system I can't think of a worse technology to use than LRT.
 
argg I'm glad Gunn's gone ... what uselessness ... I urge you all to read the details of what said in the report not the snippets media will take out of it to create headlines.
 
argg I'm glad Gunn's gone ... what uselessness ... I urge you all to read the details of what said in the report not the snippets media will take out of it to create headlines.
Do you have a link to a report? I hadn't seen one.
 
Do you have a link to a report? I hadn't seen one.

Sorry I should have been more specific ... I don't think a full report was ever published ?
I meant to read the articles (the one in the globe is decent) all the way through rather then stopping at the headline.

Anyway, I don't agree with a lot of the rationale i.e. how A would be cheaper then B and the rest is nothing more then commonsense that any slightly informed TTC rider could shed light on so hence my uselessness comment.
 
I agree with most of what Gunn says.

On the topic of cost recovery I would say that people have differing ideas on what the goals of public transportation are and when you set service level minimums you can still run an efficient operation within those boundaries. If cost recovery is the measure then shutting down the TTC completely guarantees 100% cost recovery, or running a single bus on the highest demand route could create a profit.

On the topic of streetcars I disagree. If they were getting vehicles with less capacity than a bus then I would agree, but by getting LRT vehicles with greater capacity they reduce labour costs per rider and by being electric they reduce energy costs. I'm a little concerned that he feels the new vehicles are not accessible. Hopefully he is exaggerating about there being a 1 foot step. Hopefully they are smart enough to create a step that is no greater than that of a kneeling bus.

Everything else makes sense to me.
 
If you think I was joking on the 1/3 reduction of the existing system, I am not.

Given the fact that TTC will be raising fare $.25 come Jan 1st, 2012, all new ridership growth service is to be roll back, standard vehicle loading is been thrown out, all routes below X cost ratio removed, TTC will only save about $80 million of its short fall. You have to add $25-45 million for ATU113 that is not included in the current short fall as well added unbudgeted items for the existing subway station that are over 40 years old that needs replacement, you are still looking at a major short fall.

Therefore, TTC will have to decided what part of the system it wants to maintain and does it move back to the zone system.

If TTC cannot gets its budget in lines as per the Mayor request for not only the 2012 time frame as well up to 2015, then TTC will do a mass service cuts and removal. This will lead to layoff of personal at all levels.

Watch for more fireworks on this in the coming months as I said it was going to happen.
Memo to Mayor R. Ford

Further to our conversation regarding your requested for the removal of Gary Webster as Chief General Manager of TTC, I strongly stand by my decision not to terminate Gary Webster as per your requested. If I am to do my job as Chairperson of TTC, I must make the decision that is in the best interested of TTC.

If you force me to terminate Gary Webster, I will resign from both the Chair of TTC as well your party.

You wanted me in this position as well wanted the position myself and there for I must do was is right for me as well TTC and the City of Toronto.

Yours Truly
Chair Karen Stintz

It should be noted that all new fare revenue for 2011 from increase of ridership has gone 100% to the cost of Diesel fuel for this year, leaving no surplus.
 
Can you say for sure all the service increases as of late are off the table as of next year or are you just postulating i.e. given the fee increase and the TTC's predicted reduction in ridership (which will probably not materialize) that they will ?
 
Okay, I strongly agree with about 50% of Gunn's comments and disagree with the rest.

MAINTENANCE AND EFFICIENCY
Of course, here he's quite right. State of good repair is obviously the most important thing. The last thing we want is another accident. As for the fare recovery, I don't really understand how that needs to be the concern of a TTC manager. One of Gunn's weaknesses was that he wasn't much of an advocate for government funding beyond state of good repair. I believe that there is a lot of waste at the TTC, but I don't think any of that has to do with the routes. Sure, there are a handful of routes where the buses aren't packed off-peak but that's perfectly normal on any successful system. We should be increasing service across the board, not reducing it. Too many bus routes are standing-room-only at midnight. The waste is in other areas, like inefficient staffing policies (i.e. drivers on RT trains that drive themselves) and extraordinarily high absentee rates. That's not to mention the vast wasted capacity created by a complete failure to maintain any kind of headways, particularly on downtown streetcar routes. When 4 streetcars in a row pull up on the 510, the last two cars are generally completely empty. We're paying for drivers and streetcars to provide a 5-minute headway when in reality we're only providing a 20-minute headway. I'd fix all those problems before I'd cut a single bus from the Silver Hills.

SHEPPARD
He's always had a hate-on for this project, so this reaction isn't surprising. As I've said before, Sheppard is a vital and valuable project that will connect two important parts of the city and serve an incredibly fast-developing part of the city. As for the congestion on the Yonge line, he's absolutely right, though I wonder why he never uttered a peep about a Downtown Relief Line when he was GM. I agree that the DRL should be the city's next transit priority and the need will become extremely apparent when the upcoming extensions are completed.

SPADINA
He's right about everything being preposterously overbuilt at the stations, but that has less to do with design than unnecessary scale. Munich's stations are simple but also beautiful. Painting the walls interesting colours or adding interesting light fixtures cost nothing in the scheme of a station. It's the vast caverns that add cost. The whole Spadina line is massively over-designed. Most of it should be elevated, as virtually any other city would do in that kind of a suburban/industrial setting. There's no reason why it has to be unattractive and the VCC, for example, could be built around the viaduct much like Scarborough Centre or Burnaby Metrotown have been.

MIXING TRACK GAUGES
I don't consider myself to be qualified to speak on this issue. I suspect Gunn knows what he's talking about. It all depends on how much more it costs to produce a different gauge of vehicle from the norm versus the cost of additional maintenance facilities. We already have separate maintenance facilities for the RT and that hasn't been crippling. Eglinton would have needed its own yard anyway, had it been built as subway, so I doubt the costs will be as serious as he suggests.

EGLINTON
He's obviously right about Eglinton. It should obviously be a subway, or automated light metro, if it's going to be built grade-separated. I'm glad that he points out the fact that LRVs are at least twice as expensive for equivalent capacity as subway vehicles. Running more expensive low-floor vehicles on a completely grade-separated route just compounds the absurdity.

STREETCARS
I'm not entirely clear what he's suggesting here. If he says we should replace all the streetcars with articulated buses, I disagree for a whole host of reasons. If he's saying we should keep the CLRVs and rebuild them indefinitely, I also disagree. Anyone who's ridden modern LRVs knows that the CLRVs are severely dated. I don't understand why they should have so many bugs in them (though I wouldn't be surprised if they do) since it's not like LRVs haven't been tested in other cities.

ROCKETS
It's funny that he says "Let's see how people use these trains" as if no other city in the world operates them. I've lived in a city with open-gangway trains. People obviously don't use them to walk from one end to the other to get to a different door. It's not like that would even be possible at peak where the delays are a concern anyway. The capacity benefit is also real. People routinely stand in the open gangway areas.

SIGNALS
I've heard a lot of people saying that the TTC doesn't have people qualified to administer a lot of these projects. Gunn's comments support that, which gives me a lot of anxiety. I think a turnkey project with a major provider would be the best approach here.

FRAGMENTATION
There were plenty of crazy ideas created through the Commission chain-of-command, and much worse, many good ideas were strangled in infancy. The TTC chain-of-command is infected with one of the most severe cases of Not-Invented-Here syndrome that I've ever seen. At the very least, Metrolinx has the possibility of coming up with some new ideas that aren't rehashing of what the TTC did in the 50s.

LABOUR COSTS
I completely agree with Gunn on this issue. Ford shot himself in the foot with his Police deal and we're going to be paying dearly for it over the next years. The absentee rate, as I mentioned, is a huge issue and an obvious symptom of a bigger problem.

IMPRESSIONS
He's clearly right. The system is dirty. Not New York dirty, but clearly dirty compared with how it used to be and how it should be. I'm always amazed by how buildings in the PATH are able to keep their underground spaces absolutely immaculate despite the thousands of people passing through while the immediately adjacent TTC spaces are filthy. Try it sometime. Walk from St. Andrew into any of connected buildings or from Union into BCE Place or RBP and see the difference. It does make one wonder about the stories like the one of the TTC janitor at Kipling quoted in the Star as saying that he and the other janitors spent their shifts at the nearby multiplex...
 
I either totally agree or totally disagree with Gunn's comments. There's little room in between.

Abandoning streetcars for articulated buses is preposterous. Even I agree with that, and I'm not at all sold on streetcars as a transportation mode beyond keeping up the existing legacy system. Being critical of the TRs is also incredibly shortsighted and smacks of typical Toronto exceptionalism ("I don't care if every city in the world has one, it hasn't existed here so it will fail!").

He's right about the system's filthiness, for sure. I don't think it was hyperbole to say that Eglinton is "the dumbest decision ever", because frankly it is the dumbest possible outcome I could think of, and probably the most wasteful transit project since Boston's silver line. $8 billion for an underground streetcar that retains almost all the stops of the original above ground LRT is completely asinine. For less money, I would have wagered that we could have built a real subway by axing half the stops (who needs Bermondsey, really?), thus actually giving us a true high capacity, rapid crosstown corridor, as opposed to a medium capacity semi-milk run. I digress...he's right about the Yonge line being jammed beyond capacity with all these expansion projects and he's bang on about the Spadina line stations being grandiose.
 

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