[44 North]

TTCRiders is going to make matters worse for everyone at this stage for pushing the long rejected transfer plan. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/scarborough-subway-1.4258514?cmp=rss. They might just be getting started with a campaign to make noise and promote the old plan toward the election The one stop subway may be bad, but we either improve it, relocate it, or provide an alternate LRT plan to the original. Anything else is a complete waste of time given the stage were now at and even making any revisions aside from stops would be back peddling again and have further counter productive consequences. The City needs to move on.

I don't know about these groups 'making matters worse'. They're opening a dialogue, which may very well result in things like lower per km costs, addition of a Lawrence station, and maybe even bringing the line to Sheppard. Who knows. But I'd rather hear a variety of voices than one drum-banger speaking on behalf of 3/4 million, or a few bureaucrats and politicians calling the shots. It's silence that arguably gave us the oddball SSE we have now (i.e unrealistic and fishy sky-high cost, line cut short, no inline stations).

IMO these revisions you speak ill of because they'll supposedly stop momentum are in fact the only way to get a Lawrence station. With no revision it seems like a done deal that Lawrence is a non-starter (considering it'd be 100ft below a creek). Maybe having the AG look at it will finally answer why they chose to go ten stories under a creek when maybe they could've gone over it, or used a Brimley alignment, or perhaps incorporated the hospital's closure for a station/low-level viaduct a la Old Mill.

 

[OneCity]

You can find support for anything if you want to keep looking under rocks and a bunch of out of touch residents who reside in a current LRT station does not represent even a fraction of what would actually matter in the greater landscape. But it made the news as usual with this minority opinion group so I can see how some may assume the old LRT plan has found new life.

Scarborough is a diverse place and I never once said everyone disliked the LRT plan. Never, as you continue to pile up false claims. Ive also said that most residents likely don't like the current subway plan. Two wrongs don't make a right so pitting a rejected plan against a crappy subway plan will not take us anywhere good Politically. Nor is a timely outcome possible should unexpected event occur where the transfer plan was approved to go back in. Based on reality of a bad situation I gave my best case scenario opinion to move forward based on how I feel the overall landscape votes. I speak for myself.

Also I see your posts are not hidden when I'm not logged in but at least you attacked my post with your false claim and not me personally. Progress

 

[OneCity]

I don't know about these groups 'making matters worse'. They're opening a dialogue, which may very well result in things like lower per km costs, addition of a Lawrence station, and maybe even bringing the line to Sheppard. Who knows. But I'd rather hear a variety of voices than one drum-banger speaking on behalf of 3/4 million, or a few bureaucrats and politicians calling the shots. It's silence that arguably gave us the oddball SSE we have now (i.e unrealistic sky-high cost, cut short, no inline stations).

IMO these revisions you speak ill of because they'll supposedly stop momentum are in fact the only way to get a Lawrence station. With no revision it seems like a done deal that Lawrence is a non-starter (considering it'd be 100ft below a creek). Maybe having the AG look at it will finally answer why they chose to go ten stories under a creek when maybe they could've gone over it, or used a Brimley alignment, or perhaps incorporated the hospital's closure for a station/low-level viaduct a la Old Mill.

There is a difference between healthy dialogue which opposes against the current 1 stop subway plan or its details and unhealthy dialogue continuing to promote the rejected transfer LRT which I feel has been over discussed to begin with. We realistically don't have time for that type of dialogue which has beat the horse more than any other plan. A failure to see the flaws in the old plan, or work with others to move forward is also arguably unhealthy at this stage. I do agree with you that this groups noise could help Politicians cave to provide a Lawrence station but they would be much more effective demanding a Lawrence station. Sorry, Its not their main angle.

They can make as much noise as they want, and get as much media publicity as possible out of it but in the end we get a reminder they speak for a very small minority in Scarborough. Its just my take on the matter. Lets just ask to get it put options on the ballet so we can move on if transfer LRT promoters are so sure another round of campaigning is worth it or going to make a difference. My point was lets just salvage this line while we still have time. Something that's actually realistic and possible

 

[44 North]

There is a difference between healthy dialogue which oppose against the current One stop subway plan and unhealthy dialogue continuing to promote the rejected transfer LRT. We realistically don't have time for that type of dialogue which has be beat the horse more than any other plan. A failure to see the flaws in the old plan, or work with others to move forward is also arguably unhealthy at this stage. I do agree this groups noise could help Politicians cave to provide a Lawrence station but they would be much more effective demanding a Lawrence station.

Well it sounds like you want to pick and choose who to silence and who to hear. That's not fair, nor is claiming some dialogue is "healthy" and some "unhealthy" by some construed metric of yours. Using your very own logic those who demand a Lawrence SSE station are creating unhealthy dialogue (because it stops progress and makes revisions).

 

[OneCity]

Well it sounds like you want to pick and choose who to silence and who to hear. That's not fair, nor is claiming some dialogue is "healthy" and some "unhealthy" by some construed metric of yours. Using your very own logic those who demand a Lawrence SSE station are creating unhealthy dialogue (because it stops progress and makes revisions).

If you haven't noticed the polarity of this issue in the past 2 elections and still think its healthy dialogue? Make your own assumptions this is just mine based on what seem to be obvious democratic support.
- 95% of Scarborough council supports the subway in some form (the form is a topic of relevant debate)
-Malvern NDP candidate ran on 1 stop subway support as a key part of his platform
-All Provincial MP's and Provincial opposition leaders support the subway.

But if you really think promoting the 7 stop transfer LRT is going to get us somewhere good? All the power to you, support the cause. I personally don't think anyone should be silenced. I think the majority voters have been silenced to a certain extent to give a louder voice to the minority here. Make no mistake I firmly believe its the overwhelming minority on this topic and I just don't see how banging the transfer LRT drum for another election is productive anymore. Thats all I insinuated given this current divided and democratically heavy weighted landscape. My choice would be neither plan being discussed but that's not reality either. We need to move on, not continue to attempt go in reverse again.

 

[44 North]

If you haven't noticed the polarity of this issue in the past 2 elections and still think its healthy dialogue? Make your own assumptions this is just mine based on what seem to be obvious democratic support.
- 95% of Scarborough council supports the subway in some form (the form is a topic of relevant debate)
-Malvern NDP candidate ran on 1 stop subway support as a key part of his platform
-All Provincial MP's and Provincial opposition leaders support the subway.

But if you really think promoting the 7 stop transfer LRT is going to get us somewhere good? All the power to you, support the cause. I personally don't think anyone should be silenced. I think the majority voters have been silenced to a certain extent to give a louder voice to the minority here. Make no mistake I firmly believe its the overwhelming minority on this topic and I just don't see how banging the transfer LRT drum for another election is productive anymore. Thats all I insinuated given this current divided and democratically heavy weighted landscape. My choice would be neither plan being discussed but that's not reality either. We need to move on, not continue to attempt go in reverse again.

Okay, but it works both ways. Just as there are people that want to revise/improve SSE so to are there those that want to revise/improve a Line 3 upgrade. No one group is really the right one, but claiming the die has been cast and we should move along is exactly the problem that go us into the situation. And this goes back decades and includes Miller and his predecessors. It's certainly the cause of the flawed absolutist situation where our only options seem to be a "7-stop transfer LRT" vs no stop subway.

Don't really care what polls or politicians say. People are generally dumb, and they cater to that. And I certainly don't think any one group is right. I'm sure you've seen my posts about why I disliked S(L)RT. Also think it's highly likely SSE may go back to the drawing board. Not because there's anything inherently wrong with it (there isn't), rather that historically for the region these things happen. And it's new territory for the city to shut down and destroy a valuable subway line as we're doing with Line 3. However my original point was that "moving on" or calling opposing viewpoints "unhealthy" is probably the #1 reason why we won't have a Lawrence station, just as it was the reason why the former Line 3 upgrade was flawed to the point of cancellation.

 

[sixrings]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1557766/scarborough-wants-a-subway-rest-of-toronto-says-lrt-better-poll/

According to this 41 % of scarborough wants the LRT plan. I assumed overwhelming minority meant like 10% or under. I guess we have a different definition of overwhelming minority. Minority yes. Overwhelming not so much.

Make no mistake I firmly believe its the overwhelming minority on this topic and I just don't see how banging the transfer LRT drum for another election is productive anymore.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

TTCRiders is going to make matters worse for everyone at this stage for pushing the long rejected transfer plan. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/scarborough-subway-1.4258514?cmp=rss

This poll is fully in line with my own experiences.

It's incredible how uninformed Torontonians are about infrastructure in the city. I work no too far from the Crosstown LRT, and all the time I see people wondering what all this construction is about. Maybe the dozens of signs advertising the LRT, and the fliers sent to area homes and businesses would give a hint. But nope, much of the population is just oblivious.

When I worked in Scarborough, I was given the impression that a lot of the people there thought that the subway would be in a location that was convenient for them to access. They took "Scarborough subway" to mean "subway near me". So I'm not surprised to find the vast majority of them are unaware that the subway plan will leave them with even more limited access to rapid transit. I suspect in 2026, we're going to see a lot of upset Scarborough residents that have just discovered they've lost their transit stop.

Also, one of the Scarborough councillors was talking about looking at repurposing the SRT. Hilarious!

 

[BurlOak]

I don't know about these groups 'making matters worse'. They're opening a dialogue, which may very well result in things like lower per km costs, addition of a Lawrence station, and maybe even bringing the line to Sheppard. Who knows. But I'd rather hear a variety of voices than one drum-banger speaking on behalf of 3/4 million, or a few bureaucrats and politicians calling the shots. It's silence that arguably gave us the oddball SSE we have now (i.e unrealistic and fishy sky-high cost, line cut short, no inline stations).hire

IMO these revisions you speak ill of because they'll supposedly stop momentum are in fact the only way to get a Lawrence station. With no revision it seems like a done deal that Lawrence is a non-starter (considering it'd be 100ft below a creek). Maybe having the AG look at it will finally answer why they chose to go ten stories under a creek when maybe they could've gone over it, or used a Brimley alignment, or perhaps incorporated the hospital's closure for a station/low-level viaduct a la Old Mill.

I am not sure if the AG is the right person.
Best would be to get some Value Engineering which is tasked with finding the best option for a fully grade-separated, connected rapid transit line.

My understanding was that they did do some VE, but it had to be deep bore subway and only the location of the STC station, or emergency exits, was open for review.

 

[44 North]

I am not sure if the AG is the right person.
Best would be to get some Value Engineering which is tasked with finding the best option for a fully grade-separated, connected rapid transit line.

My understanding was that they did do some VE, but it had to be deep bore subway and only the location of the STC station, or emergency exits, was open for review.

Possible you and I are thinking something similar here. I don't want to say the fellow's name or report, but the end result would be a pretty good option for a "fully grade-separated, connected rapid transit line". Two lines to be exact. Obviously not the thread for fantasy stuff, but I think it's apt to bring up what with your mention of value engineering. Also that it had some degree of engineering maths to give an idea of the benefit.

Naturally been discussed ad nauseum before, but here's a link to the video as a rehash. Now keep in mind I don't exactly support its creator, and question ideas like using Innovia or the 401 corridor instead of standard 4-car subway and keeping on Sheppard. But still the end result of this Scarboro Wye would arguably be more palatable to the area than both the MOU compromise and SSE. And it finally deals with Sheppard.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Possible you and I are thinking something similar here. I don't want to say the fellow's name or report, but the end result would be a pretty good option for a "fully grade-separated, connected rapid transit line". Two lines to be exact. Obviously not the thread for fantasy stuff, but I think it's apt to bring up what with your mention of value engineering. Also that it had some degree of engineering maths to give an idea of the benefit.

Naturally been discussed ad nauseum before, but here's a link to the video as a rehash. Now keep in mind I don't exactly support its creator, and question ideas like using Innovia or the 401 corridor instead of standard 4-car subway and keeping on Sheppard. But still the end result of this Scarboro Wye would arguably be more palatable to the area than both the MOU compromise and SSE. And it finally deals with Sheppard.

The chances of this happening are zero now. Council isn't going to backtrack on the subway decision.

 

[Hopkins123]

http://globalnews.ca/news/1557766/scarborough-wants-a-subway-rest-of-toronto-says-lrt-better-poll/

According to this 41 % of scarborough wants the LRT plan. I assumed overwhelming minority meant like 10% or under. I guess we have a different definition of overwhelming minority. Minority yes. Overwhelming not so much.

That's your proof? A push poll taken from three years ago? Remember folks, this predates a lot of things. Like the Trudeau inauguration and his promise of untold billions of dollars earmarked for Toronto transit. Also predates the wild factor that is Patrick Brown's probable government-in-waiting and how he may re-prioritize things more in the suburbs', Scarborough's in particular, favour. And even in spite of this poll, Scarborough still wind up overwhelmingly voting for the pro-subway candidate in the municipal election that year:

 

[Hopkins123]

This poll is fully in line with my own experiences.

It's incredible how uninformed Torontonians are about infrastructure in the city. I work no too far from the Crosstown LRT, and all the time I see people wondering what all this construction is about. Maybe the dozens of signs advertising the LRT, and the fliers sent to area homes and businesses would give a hint. But nope, much of the population is just oblivious.

When I worked in Scarborough, I was given the impression that a lot of the people there thought that the subway would be in a location that was convenient for them to access. They took "Scarborough subway" to mean "subway near me". So I'm not surprised to find the vast majority of them are unaware that the subway plan will leave them with even more limited access to rapid transit. I suspect in 2026, we're going to see a lot of upset Scarborough residents that have just discovered they've lost their transit stop.

Also, one of the Scarborough councillors was talking about looking at repurposing the SRT. Hilarious!

Then the answer is to advocate putting the lost stops (Lawrence, Sheppard, possibly Eglinton-Danforth) back into the plan; not relishing in the thought of Scarborough getting absolutely nothing indefinitely just because they dared defy the LRT proposal.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Then the answer is to advocate putting the lost stops (Lawrence, Sheppard, possibly Eglinton-Danforth) back into the plan; not relishing in the thought of Scarborough getting absolutely nothing indefinitely just because they dared defy the LRT proposal.

That would be realistic advice, if adding those stations wouldn't add a billion dollars onto an already obscenely expensive plan.

Council understood the limitations and benefits of the subway extension plan, and voted to build it. We now have to live with the benefits and downsides of the plan, including the limited number of stops.

 

[Hopkins123]

That would be realistic advice, if adding those stations wouldn't add a billion dollars onto an already obscenely expensive plan.

Council understood the limitations and benefits of the subway extension plan, and voted to build it. We now have to live with the benefits and downsides of the plan, including the limited number of stops.

And if we wait another 25 years to get back around to infilling those stops by then it'll cost the governments of the day far more than $1 billion to do so than it would now. Inaction is worse than action, even if it offends some groups. This constant acquiescence with whatever the Prov tells us we can and can't have needs to stop.

But like you said, most people are tuned out and don't even know the plans in any detail till it's too late, one way or the other. They just want to get from east Scarborough to downtown or to Etobicoke or to North York within a reasonable amount of time at an affordable price. Can't say I blame them.