[drum118]

The report should be published as soon as it becomes available. There are many good reasons to build SSE, no need to hide the cost from the public. If the underground route appears way more expensive than originally thought, then the surface option should be revisited; the sooner, the better.

By having that report surface now and showing it far better going to LRT than subway with council voteing for the change, those who voted to kill the subway will/could face a backlash for changing the plan and could be vote out of office come Oct.

Fully agree the public has the right to known now what the cost will be now not 14 or so months from now.

 

[Rainforest]

By having that report surface now and showing it far better going to LRT than subway with council voteing for the change, those who voted to kill the subway will/could face a backlash for changing the plan and could be vote out of office come Oct.

Fully agree the public has the right to known now what the cost will be now not 14 or so months from now.

I think that if the report favors LRT, but the constituents still prefer the subway, then the councilors should be loyal to their constituents and continue supporting the subway.

Yet, the sooner we know the better. If the cost remains in line with the previous forecast, then let's go ahead and there is nothing to hide. If the cost is way above, then we should revisit alternative options, particularly those that extend the subway but without extensive tunneling.

The surface subway was ruled out based on the previous cost estimates; if the tunneled option went way up since that decision was made, then perhaps the surface option is very competitive now.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yet, the sooner we know the better. If the cost remains in line with the previous forecast, then let's go ahead and there is nothing to hide. If the cost is way above, then we should revisit alternative options, particularly those that extend the subway but without extensive tunneling.

Clearly Tory and DeBeremaker believe there is something to hide. They're the ones who took moves to ensure the report wouldn't come out before the election

The surface subway was ruled out based on the previous cost estimates; if the tunneled option went way up since that decision was made, then perhaps the surface option is very competitive now.

This is how you end up delaying the project by another 5 years.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

By having that report surface now and showing it far better going to LRT than subway with council voteing for the change, those who voted to kill the subway will/could face a backlash for changing the plan and could be vote out of office come Oct.

Fully agree the public has the right to known now what the cost will be now not 14 or so months from now.

An "alternative" conspiracy theory I saw on Twitter is that, in the case the project goes over budget, Tory will move to kill the extension in 2019, since he won't be up for reelection and won't care about losing Scarborough votes. This is a possibility, although I personally believe he's delayed the report until 2019, so he can push the subway for approval without electoral backlash due to increasing costs.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

In the case the one-stop SSE does go over budget, it will be very interesting to see how Council deals with getting more money. Council could try to raise the money themselves, but with the new composition of Council (three new downtown wards), it's highly unlikely they'd approve extra spending. Nevermind that Toronto is currently at its debt ceiling, so the City generating extra funds for this project in 2019 might be totally infeasible regardless. This could very well be the death knell for the underground, one-stop SSE.

Alternatively, the City could go cap-in-hand to Queens Park for additional funding. The province has been consistently adamant that they wont spend a single dime extra on the SSE, but seeing their prized project potentially evaporate might change those attitudes

 

[syn]

Not necessarily better value though. Building 2 light rail lines (or even 3) will affect just a portion of those 50% transit trips that begin and end in Scarborough. Perhaps, 20 to 30% of the total instead of 50%. Furthermore, the time saved will be very minor, 3-5 min, if the trip includes both a short light rail segment and an unchanged bus segment.

On the other hand, some of the downtown headed trips can be shortened by 10-15 min (no transfer, and faster STC-Kennedy segment) when the subway is extended.

Trips to downtown is a minority at 23%, but it is a group that can be substantially improved by one single move.

I have a very difficult time seeing how a comprehensive LRT network would not provide better value than a 6km one-stop extension. The current subway proposal really offers nothing to riders traveling within Scarborough; it's actually worse than the current RT in that regard.

What I'm proposing would offer a direct connection to the Yonge Line to a far greater number of people with no transfer (until they arrive of course), unlike the current extension which will require a bus ride at the very least. Based on transit travel patterns in Scarborough, Yonge-Eglinton is an excellent connection point as it will save time for riders heading north.

Furthermore, the travel times will arguably be quite comparable. The current travel time from Kennedy to Yonge is 22 minutes (https://www.lafferty.ca/files/stuff/misc/subway_travel_time_chart.pdf). The estimated travel time from Kennedy to Yonge-Eglinton on the Eglinton Crosstown is 26 minutes. It's just a four minute difference. Factor in being able to ride directly from within Scarborough to Yonge-Eglinton (or Eglinton West Station) without a transfer from a bus, and you aren't going to see a massive difference.

It would be superior to the 1 stop extension in almost every way.

If Scarborough wanted to spend $5 billion on this kind of plan I'd be all for it.

 

[syn]

An "alternative" conspiracy theory I saw on Twitter is that, in the case the project goes over budget, Tory will move to kill the extension in 2019, since he won't be up for reelection and won't care about losing Scarborough votes. This is a possibility, although I personally believe he's delayed the report until 2019, so he can push the subway for approval without electoral backlash due to increasing costs.

Personally I think it's the former - but you propose an interesting theory.

He'll face a lot of pressure during the election for some numbers or some promise of fiscal responsibility. If his plan is what you propose, it could definitely backfire on him.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Can the cost projections be obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request? If not, it's quite absurd that these numbers can remain secret until politicians decide its convenient for them. Subways aren't a state secret.

 

[vic]

Can the cost projections be obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request? If not, it's quite absurd that these numbers can remain secret until politicians decide its convenient for them. Subways aren't a state secret.

I'm wondering when it will leak to the media....

 

[OneCity]

I think that if the report favors LRT, but the constituents still prefer the subway, then the councilors should be loyal to their constituents and continue supporting the subway.

Yet, the sooner we know the better. If the cost remains in line with the previous forecast, then let's go ahead and there is nothing to hide. If the cost is way above, then we should revisit alternative options, particularly those that extend the subway but without extensive tunneling.

The surface subway was ruled out based on the previous cost estimates; if the tunneled option went way up since that decision was made, then perhaps the surface option is very competitive now.

Yes, then we need to go back and compare surface subway, tunneled LRT, surface LRT (the transfer plan has already been proven poor value), hybrid subway plans and whatever else someone decides to throw into mix like a "SmartSpur). Decades and decades of further doing nothing and possibly saving nothing financially by that time. Dragging out this report is the best thing they can do to get this City moving towards actually building for once. Enough studies, and political debate over 2 very bad plans for this line. The City is so polarized and poisoned that if they get shovels in the ground its an amazing feat. Smarttrack, Subway and Eglinton East LRT is a very good "plan" to push forward with or without any intermediate subway stops as absurd as that is. Going back is more absurd IMO

If we go back here, then the Politics will become far worse and surely spill over into the other plans within the City as well. There is no scenario on which transfer LRT is forced in without the City facing a major domino effect.

 

[salsa]

Yes, then we need to go back and compare surface subway, tunneled LRT, surface LRT (the transfer plan has already been proven poor value), hybrid subway plans and whatever else someone decides to throw into mix like a "SmartSpur). Decades and decades of further doing nothing and possibly saving nothing financially by that time. Dragging out this report is the best thing they can do to get this City moving towards actually building for once. Enough studies, and political debate over the 2 very bad plans or this line. The City is so polarized and poisoned that if they get shovels in the ground its an amazing feat. Smarttrack, Subway and Eglinton East LRT is a very good "plan" to push forward with or without any intermediate subway stops as absurd as that is. Going back is more absurd IMO.

You seem to be saying a lot of contradictory things just in that one paragraph:

- We need to look at other alternatives to the subway plan as it's currently proposed.
- Enough with the studies and political debate, time to start building.
- Further delays are bad and could cost us even more money (true), therefore dragging out that report for 9 months is somehow a good thing.

 

[OneCity]

You seem to be saying a lot of contradictory things just in that one paragraph:

- We need to look at other alternatives to the subway plan as it's currently proposed.
- Enough with the studies and political debate, time to start building.
- Further delays are bad and could cost us even more money (true), therefore dragging out that report for 9 months is somehow a good thing.

Sorry. Didn't mean it to be contradictory. Just to clarify those points:

-I meant "if" we go back we would be studying many plans (Under no circumstance do I hope we go backward) not just the transfer LRT plan vs. the one stop.

-Yes enough wasting time, we need to move forward for various reasons and for the entire City not just Scarborough. For all the SSE warts in terms of corridor and stops that get discussed the one thing that's overlooked is it has opened up the Eglinton East LRT to be transfer free at Kennedy. 2 transfers removed. Smarttrack if implemented on a TTC fare also provides a layer of redundancy from Downtown to near "Central Scarborough". That's a huge bonus for major BDL delays or shutdowns

-The only and major reason that dragging the report past the election is good is because it keeps the project on track. Their has been a clear attack from day one on any plan except the transfer LRT and we know the other side of the polarized spectrum is subways only. We have had 2 straight elections with this at the forefront and I believe keeping this at bay will keep the discussion less polarizing. Having this debate become any more polarized at election time likely helps fuel one candidate more than the others. If Torys plans can be carried forward and get shovels in the ground on all the plans in design that's the best outcome, anything else could be political suicide and throw all plans in reverse.

 

[Voltz]

For all the SSE warts that get discussed the one thing that's overlooked is it has opened up the Eglinton East LRT to be transfer free at Kennedy

No it didn't, nothing prevented through running in the previous plans, nor are there even any plans that show what the LRT platforms will look like now. And one of the many warts of the SSE, is that is has gobbled up funding that should have been used for several other lines, like Eglinton East.

 

[OneCity]

No it didn't, nothing prevented through running in the previous plans, nor are there even any plans that show what the LRT platforms will look like now. And one of the many warts of the SSE, is that is has gobbled up funding that should have been used for several other lines, like Eglinton East.

1. The current Eglinton East LRT is being designed for a seamless connection at Kennedy.

2. The subway is a spate tax and always has been. We need more of this. Sheppard LRT went to Finch and Eglinton East was never funded.

 

[Voltz]

1. The current Eglinton East LRT is being designed for a seamless connection at Kennedy.

2. The subway is a spate tax and always has been. We need more of this. Sheppard LRT went to Finch and Eglinton East was never funded.

Again, no, Eglinton East was supposed to be funded with the One Stop Stubway plan from the same money.