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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
^Really excellent document.
I really liked the reminder to think on a systems level.
Too many “enthusiasts” argue “we should have x on our trams, like they do in xxxxx” without understanding the system impacts.
- Paul
I really liked the reminder to think on a systems level.
Too many “enthusiasts” argue “we should have x on our trams, like they do in xxxxx” without understanding the system impacts.
- Paul
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Interesting article.
I think the biggest change we will see over the next 20 to 30 years will be the phasing out of all catenary supply and all streetcars moving over to battery power and, perhaps in very long routes, hydrogen.
Overhead wires are ugly, expensive to maintain, and are susceptible to the wraths of Mother Nature making them less reliable when people rely on transit the most.
Many cities in Europe are already phasing them systems over to battery especially in the more historic cores where they are a visual blight. That said, they are also making inroads in NA as the Detroit Q Line is catenary free and the new Charlotte streetcar is planned on being so as well. As battery technology continues to develop at a truly exponential rate and resulting in plunging prices, higher reliability, and more distance with quicker recharge times, catenary will become a technology of diminishing returns.
As the batteries become systems where charging is only required once a day, it also results in much cheaper electricity costs over catenary as batteries can be recharged overnight when hydro rates are their lowest as opposed to catenary which has to supply it's most frequent service when hydro rates are at their highest.
I think the biggest change we will see over the next 20 to 30 years will be the phasing out of all catenary supply and all streetcars moving over to battery power and, perhaps in very long routes, hydrogen.
Overhead wires are ugly, expensive to maintain, and are susceptible to the wraths of Mother Nature making them less reliable when people rely on transit the most.
Many cities in Europe are already phasing them systems over to battery especially in the more historic cores where they are a visual blight. That said, they are also making inroads in NA as the Detroit Q Line is catenary free and the new Charlotte streetcar is planned on being so as well. As battery technology continues to develop at a truly exponential rate and resulting in plunging prices, higher reliability, and more distance with quicker recharge times, catenary will become a technology of diminishing returns.
As the batteries become systems where charging is only required once a day, it also results in much cheaper electricity costs over catenary as batteries can be recharged overnight when hydro rates are their lowest as opposed to catenary which has to supply it's most frequent service when hydro rates are at their highest.
valvenis
New Member
It's always hard to predict the future.
100 years ago, everyone thought that cars would solve similar complaints of ugly, messy transit that was expensive to maintain, and susceptible to the wraths of mother nature - horses.
The technology will hit the sweet spot of performance, reliablity in various weather conditions, low operating and maintenance costs, etc. has yet to be determined. It's useful to see that Germany has recently started running hydrogen running trains in service, but so many aspects of that, including the cost of getting the hydrogen are unknown.
T3G
Senior Member
There's a lot of other things that are susceptible to the wrath of mother nature, too. Inclement weather rendering the roads unusable is a big thing (and I venture that this problem crops up more frequently than frozen overhead wires do), not to mention vehicle sub-systems which may not play well with super cold weather (remember the issues the CLRVs and ALRVs had with pneumatic air lines).
drum118
Superstar
You need to look at other countries that have tram system that are older than Toronto as well equipment to see Toronto has a problem.
Go to Milano where you are riding on rolling stock from the 30's and 40's (Petter Witt). There there are countries that were behind the Iron Current who have old equipment than the ALRV's/CLRV's still running today.
We even rode on 75-115 year old trams without support vehicles considering we can't run our Peter Witt in regular service without support.. Will never see the Witt in regular service consider a lot of Europe systems roll out old stock on the weekends for a number of months including the summer.
The future of the OS is dying as new equipment comes to market that doesn't need an OS to operate. The OS is an eye sore as well costly to maintain.
It will take 20 years to fix all TTC issues with the streetcar system only if there is money to do it. Lack of funds is TTC major issue to have a streetcar system that could operate a lot better and faster.
Talked to a number of supervisors who were young on Sat who were calling for the removal of most streetcar lines as they are caught up in traffic, can't pass each other nor able to backup if caught in a jam or off route.
T3G
Senior Member
Not sure why the long screed in response to my post, none of the facts that you listed are unknown to me in any capacity.
The comparison of the Peter Witts in Milan and the old rolling stock behind the former Iron Curtain is not a 1:1 comparison, as a lot of the old Communist cities run the old vehicles because they have to, not necessarily because they want to. They don't have the financial means to afford a wholesale replacement of their older rolling stock, especially the further east you go. And I'm not sure what the TTC's weird rules around the operation of the Peter Witt have to do with the overhead system.
As for the replacement of the overhead system, priorities, please. In a city with limited financial means to achieve anything, let's look in on something that will actually bring big benefits to the table, such as upgrading the switches to higher speed ones so that the cars don't have to stop to inspect every single switch and don't have to crawl through them once they have. The very last thing we need right now is to get locked in to some kind of experimental technology that ends up screwing over the streetcar system further.
The comparison of the Peter Witts in Milan and the old rolling stock behind the former Iron Curtain is not a 1:1 comparison, as a lot of the old Communist cities run the old vehicles because they have to, not necessarily because they want to. They don't have the financial means to afford a wholesale replacement of their older rolling stock, especially the further east you go. And I'm not sure what the TTC's weird rules around the operation of the Peter Witt have to do with the overhead system.
As for the replacement of the overhead system, priorities, please. In a city with limited financial means to achieve anything, let's look in on something that will actually bring big benefits to the table, such as upgrading the switches to higher speed ones so that the cars don't have to stop to inspect every single switch and don't have to crawl through them once they have. The very last thing we need right now is to get locked in to some kind of experimental technology that ends up screwing over the streetcar system further.
Northern Light
Superstar
Of course, these things are very remedy-able
Passing track is not a particularly complicated idea, expensive to put everywhere, but not overly expensive if slipped in a few strategic locations during routine reconstruction.
Adding turning movements during reconstruction (something the TTC has missed twice in the last few years); and filling in a couple of diversion track gaps would do wonders.)
In the west end, I think track on Dufferin from Queen to College would be extremely useful.
In the east end, there is a need for a N-S connection between Gerrard and Queen, east of Broadview and west of Coxwell.
***
As discussed here many times, there are countless measures to speed up streetcars, ranging from better transit priority, to removing some excessively close stops, to better enforcing existing turn restrictions, to created new left turn lanes in strategic locations, particularly to avoid one streetcar route blocking another (EB Queen to NB Broadview).
Of course, it all costs money; and requires political will.
DSC
Superstar
One problem (apart from lack of money!) is that the TTC does not think or remember! Several years ago (ca 2014?) the Board asked for a report on desirable additional 'curves' at junctions. This Report was accepted and recommended that several curves be added when the track in those locations was being rebuilt. In at least two cases (Church/Carlton and Broadview/Gerrard) the TTC "forgot" about this when the track was being rebuilt. (Church/Carleton is being rebuilt now.)
smallspy
Senior Member
This is not the first time that you've claimed that TTC supervisors have told you this. And yet, I know of not one supervisor who would actually say it.
Dan
drum118
Superstar
Unless you know every supervisor and talk to them, you can only comment on the few you talked to.
I have 2 other people with me at the time that will backup my claim since they were the first to start the conversation.
nfitz
Superstar
How young were they? Which department?
drum118
Superstar
I place the young supervisor in their 30-40's and the other in the 50's. As for division, they were dealing with the TIFF mess on King at Spadina with buses replacing the streetcar on 504
You got ppl in various age brackets within TTC, City staff and council who prefer to see streetcars disappear.
If the anti streetcar folks think buses will do a better job, they need to visit NYC to see how they get caught up in traffic and moving less riders
ssiguy2
Senior Member
Don't get me wrong, I'm not "advocating" for battery streetcars, there is no reason to because they are inevitable.
The rate of battery technology development is truly numbing and this will increase as ICE vehicles are phased out around the world. In 20 short years they will be vastly smaller, cheaper, lighter, last longer, more reliable, go further, and recharge faster than we can even imagine today. It's not that catenary won't still work but rather it will become too much of a financial burden to justify keeping them. Vancouver will be doing the same with their trolley fleet,
In 30 years, I don't think the TTC will even be able to find a supplier for more as catenary streetcars as manufacturers shift over to 100% battery. They will simply be a far superior technology choice offering the same quiet, smooth, and carbon-free benefits of catenary but without it's high infrastructure maintenance costs, ugly overhead wires, and susceptibility of our ever changing climate.
Even in 20 years I don't think Toronto will be doing any wholesale pull down of the catenary infrastructure but rather just a slow and steady phase out as wires need replacing, they simply won't bother.
The rate of battery technology development is truly numbing and this will increase as ICE vehicles are phased out around the world. In 20 short years they will be vastly smaller, cheaper, lighter, last longer, more reliable, go further, and recharge faster than we can even imagine today. It's not that catenary won't still work but rather it will become too much of a financial burden to justify keeping them. Vancouver will be doing the same with their trolley fleet,
In 30 years, I don't think the TTC will even be able to find a supplier for more as catenary streetcars as manufacturers shift over to 100% battery. They will simply be a far superior technology choice offering the same quiet, smooth, and carbon-free benefits of catenary but without it's high infrastructure maintenance costs, ugly overhead wires, and susceptibility of our ever changing climate.
Even in 20 years I don't think Toronto will be doing any wholesale pull down of the catenary infrastructure but rather just a slow and steady phase out as wires need replacing, they simply won't bother.
T3G
Senior Member
It's not just a question of if the wires will need replacing, the question will also be can the rolling stock handle it? The next 60 cars that are on order will also run on overhead wire, and in 20 years neither they, nor the youngest of the initial order, will be ready yet for replacement (also, given the size of the fleet, I venture any replacement of the Flexity fleet will be done in one fell swoop like they did with the CLRVs and ALRVs, so I expect that the oldest Flexitys will make it to 40 or beyond). You need to fully eliminate all vehicles without off wire capability before you can discuss eliminating wires.