sodapop
Active Member
i love subways! but they do give quite a convincing arguement. its much cheaper for them to build which means they can spend the leftover money on other stuff, while still bringing in a fair bit back
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- Thread starter Brans89
- Start date
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
Comparing Cincinnatti to Toronto is like comparing apples to oranges. The two cities could not be more different, in their needs, their motives and the kind of economic and political realities that face these two places in two very different countries.
American cities aren't investing in streetcars because they want to improve the state of transit in their city. Honestly, $128M on a streetcar that probably won't even transport 5,000 people a day is a colossal waste of money and is the definition of "pork". American cities are investing in streetcars because a lot of American municipalities are competing with one another to attract sales taxes from corporate conventions and business tourism. It's for the same reason that they bend over backwards to build new convention centres and why they give tax free bonds to sports teams to build new stadiums. A streetcar is a vanity project that gives casual business tourists "something to do" and gives off an image of a squeaky clean environment in which you want to host a convention. Streetcar promoters then wrap the idea of a streetcar as "public transit", or even more cunningly, "a great way to curb greenhouse gas emissions and fight climate change!" and then successfully lobby for federal stimulus funds. Also, there's probably more to that $1.4B in development figure than meets the eye. Portland had to give away $600 million in tax breaks to developers who built along their streetcar line to generate $3.5B in development (PS, that wasn't a loan and the tax revenues generated off of $3.5B development does not equal $600 million).
Building transit ridership and helping the local population move around is probably the last thing on the mind of American municipal politicians and streetcar boosters because, quite frankly, the operating subsidies that are required to run such loss-generating streetcars usually gets yanked from the transit agency's operating budget resulting in a loss of service elsewhere in the system. In America, streetcars are not a transportation mode but a strategy to attract corporate investment.
In Toronto, on the other hand, we don't need to attract corporate investment (we are up to our eyeballs in development) or revitalize our downtown to make it more palatable to coventioneers. On the other hand, we do need to improve our existing transit service which is strained to capacity. For the reasons I have mentioned we are strained to capacity, and arguing over whether streetcars or buses are more appropriately suited for our growing travel needs is like arguing over which African dictator has a better human rights record.
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Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Cincy's population is 300 000, even Mississauga tops that. In fact Cincy's "Metro" population is the same as Toronto's "City" population. Toronto's population density is almost double Cincy's
Why should we be looking at Cincy for a transit model?
Why should we be looking at Cincy for a transit model?
Dan416
Senior Member
Exactly. Looking at Cincinnati as a transit model for Toront has about as much use as using Versailles or Linz as a model for Toronto.
GTS
Active Member
I hope the streetcar is here to stay in Toronto. It would be very expensive to rip up all the tracks that are already in place and streetcars attract more people to transit then the average bus routes do for some reason. I live a bit east of Bingham Loop near Victoria Park and Kingston Rd. and witnessed the whole rebuild of this loop so that it can accomodate the new streetcars when they arrive I read on another transit site. Bingham Loop now has a bit more shelter (though not from the wind!!) for us transit users. I think it wouldn't be very fiscally responsible to flush this whole, expensive project down the drain because you personally don't like streetcars.
As a side note, I hope that other streetcar loops get similar treatment, it is much appreciated by me and others that are heavy users of transit here in TO.
As a side note, I hope that other streetcar loops get similar treatment, it is much appreciated by me and others that are heavy users of transit here in TO.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Even Montréal is planning for streetcars, or as they call them "tramways", and a network of lines.
Here's the link to their first line (13 km long) along Côte-des-Neiges to downtown. It's in French.
Here's the same link using Google translate, from French to English. No guarantees with the translation, if something goes wrong use the French original website.
Here's the link to their first line (13 km long) along Côte-des-Neiges to downtown. It's in French.
Here's the same link using Google translate, from French to English. No guarantees with the translation, if something goes wrong use the French original website.
adma
Superstar
Though maybe not *entirely* out of line. After all, plenty of urban design/studies texts through the years have invoked medieval European models for designing and planning metropolii many times the size...
Chuck
Senior Member
In North American terms, I'd say that Toronto is in the somewhat unique position where embracing new streetcar routes would be a step backwards in our course of development. We just didn't experience the hollowing out of our central core and transit system that other cities did, which means that instead of needing to make up for 70 years of lost growth, our surface transit system is instead bursting at the seams. It would be beyond stupid to ever replace a streetcar route with a bus, but as many people know, it's high time to replace certain streetcar routes with subway.
As for the suburbs, if it's express service that we want, why not just build HOV lanes and operate express buses? I'd take the express bus routes serving Steeles and Finch any day over a streetcar which still has to stop far more frequently.
I'd also like to comment on that little girl's letter about streetcars. We were all 10 years old once upon a time. When I was 10, I also couldn't get enough streetcars, and would throw a tantrum if we didn't sit in the front car of the subway. But as a working adult with only so much time in the day, I just want to get home from work as fast as possible. I don't care about watching the street go by, no am I upset about being tucked away in a dark tunnel. I still do enjoy my neighbourhood very much, which is why I take walks on the weekend or go to local restaurants. When it comes to transportation though, I really don't care for doddling around on a streetcar at walking speed. Let's get on with DRL already, and scrap the central portion of the 501 and 504 streetcar lines!
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
I'm not a transit buff so I don't have a deep knowledge of the system but why would we be tearing out the central portions of the 501 and 504 streetcar lines? Aren't those like the most heavily used streetcar lines in the city? I live in the old city of Toronto and drive around the old city of Toronto almost every day for work. As a driver I have no problem with streetcars. What is the problem again?
adma
Superstar
The problem is that you're weird;-)
CDL.TO
Moderator
He's suggesting that the central parts of the 501 and 504 should be replaced with a subway line (the DRL).
Personally, I think what changes are made to the downtown streetcar network following the construction of a DRL really depends on the subway's route and stop locations.
Dan416
Senior Member
Even with the new DRL study going on now, by the time it's finished, who's to say there'll be funding for it? And if not, by the time there is funding for it, the study will be out of date, and we'll have to do another study. Rinse. Repeat.
Paleo
Active Member
Of course not. It doesn't make it any less true.
reaperexpress
Senior Member
We should all agree to throw a shit fit if the DRL doesn't get funded and the Sheppard Extension does. The DRL has universal support. Here, we argue everything from technology choices for lines such as Eglinton and Sheppard to the subway's door chimes, but there is unanimous agreement that the DRL is by far the most important transit project in Toronto. Even Steve Munro (the supposed king of the LRTistas) is pushing for the DRL subway!
GenerationW
Senior Member
On this forum, sure, but in the real world Sheppard has the closest thing to universal support right now since only it has Federal funding in place, and that funding is specific to transit on Sheppard and only Sheppard. I believe it's a done deal that Ford will convert LRT funding into some kind of a subway extension.
Let's not forget that a Sheppard subway is already there, extensions were planned for, and Miller fought hard (and lost) for a Sheppard subway extension in his first term before getting SELRT funding in his second. The DRL has nothing even close to that kind of a track record.
The push for a DRL may not happen until York Region is successful (as it inevitably will be) in getting a Yonge extension into Richmond Hill, which will then put a lot of pressure on Toronto. A project as big as the DRL will likely require help from Ottawa, so assuming York Region gets Federal money for Yonge, that could leave Toronto chasing money that isn't there and leave us without a DRL, or with a shorter one.