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Uh, TC is a supersafe Liberal riding and Rae was the only strong candidate in that race. P-HP has an NDP incumbent.

The point is relative vote. The percentage of voters who went for the NDP dropped significantly since the last election, and Khaki was not a bad candidate. Either way, it's beside the point. Even if the Liberals were doing badly, Kennedy would win. He's simply very personally popular in the riding. Even DiNovo's big win makes that plain: He won a huge majority, and a few years later with a weaker candidate, the riding swung big to the NDP. That screams personal mandate.

All this business about Y-SW makes no sense. He has a base in P-HP. He's as likely to win in P-HP as he is in Y-SW. Why would he abandon his base and his machine? More importantly, as a Liberal he wants to bring as many seats into the Liberal fold as possible. If he can comfortably take another party's riding, why wouldn't he? And don't try to imagine that it's somehow mean of the Liberals to be taking the poor NDP's seat. That's a political party's purpose: to win as many seats as possible. The NDP has elected dozens of Conservatives because they try to elect as many MPs as possible, even in ridings they're not likely to ever win. We got Mulroney's second term, among other things, because the NDP tried to win as many seats as they possibly could. There's nothing wrong with that. It's to be expected that any party will try to add to its total wherever it can.

Observer Walt: I agree. I think he'll win Papineau pretty comfortably. I was very impressed by how hard he worked in his nomination campaign, and the size of win he pulled out against some people with pretty significant backing. This isn't a guy that asked to be parachuted into a safe seat. He fought for a nomination in an unheld riding. That says to me that he's someone with a real committment to the party. He's very personable, and a born politician. I obviously don't think that he's ready to be a leader or anything like that any time soon. I think he needs to work his way up from the bottom, if he has any kinds of aspirations, and he seems to be showing a willingness to do that.

Incidentally, if he ever is successful in the long term, his riding will probably be a significant handicap. It's a fairly swing-prone riding, and even a strong MP can be thrown out in a place like that during a sweep. His father, for example, benefitted from running in one of the safest Liberal ridings in the country. He never had to worry about spending critical time during an election back home in the riding, though he was by all rights a pretty decent constituency MP.
 
Incidentally, if he ever is successful in the long term, his riding will probably be a significant handicap. It's a fairly swing-prone riding, and even a strong MP can be thrown out in a place like that during a sweep.

Papineau? Not really. It even stayed Liberal through the Mulroney era. It's only the sponsorship scandal (and maybe, or maybe not, redistribution) that turned it "fairly swing-prone".

It'd probably be "safer" for Justin than St. Maurice was for Chretien, believe it or not.
 
Papineau has always been one of the closer ridings that the Liberals have managed to keep out of the fire, for the most part.

Chretien had his troubles up in Mauricie, but he was a legend in that seat and knew it like the back of his hand. He was never going to lose it, certainly not while he was prime minister. It was a personal mandate. It will take time for Justin Trudeau to build up that kind of base in Papineau.

Here's an interesting alternative perspective:

The man who could be King

With a disloyal party, apathetic voters and a famous dog, Liberal leader St̩phane Dion seems like a match for, hmmm РCanada's longest-serving PM?

Mar 30, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack MacLeod
Special to the Star

Who does Stéphane Dion remind you of? Oddly enough, he reminds me of Canada's most successful politician of the 20th century, our longest serving prime minister, Mackenzie King.

Oh, I know, it is presently fashionable to point out Dion's apparent shortcomings. Mackenzie King, through most of the 1920s, even after he became prime minister, also heard repeated demands that he be replaced. But to say that Dion is a liability to his party's electoral prospects is wrong and short-sighted.

The question should be: Compared to what? If the Liberal leader lacks dazzling charisma, so too does Harper, who has all the charm and warmth of a forensic accountant. I find Dion's obvious depth of character and diffident manner engaging.

Some comparisons and contrasts between King and Dion may be instructive. Both are examples of intellectuals in politics. Each holds an earned doctorate in the social sciences, King from Harvard, Dion from Paris.

Neither man has been adept in a second language. Dion is not yet assured in English, while King's French was extremely limited, almost non-existent, forcing him to rely heavily on a Québécois lieutenant such as Ernest Lapointe.

Dion seems very much his own man, leaning on no one particular colleague while steadily expanding his knowledge of Anglo Canada and of English.

Polls show that Dion is not wildly popular in his home province. Still, as an election nears, historical voting patterns suggest Québécois usually favour francophone confreres in office in Ottawa.

But compared with Mackenzie King, Dion has personal advantages at the polls that make him seem easily electable. Recall how difficult it was for King to find or hold a seat in the House, even as prime minister. His first riding was in Ontario, Waterloo North, in 1908, but he was defeated there in 1911 and in 1917.

In 1919, as party leader, a seat was found for him in P.E.I. He shifted to York North, Ont., in 1921 but suffered defeat again in the 1926 election, and a seat had to be "arranged" in (no kidding) Prince Albert, Sask. Small wonder there were frequent rumblings in the party about replacing him. By comparison with King, Dion may be Mr. Congeniality.

Mackenzie King held office for 22 years in spite of being humourless, a lifelong bachelor, and a dry, prolix speaker.

Dion has none of these handicaps, nor has he ever been regarded as evasive or deceitful, as King often was. Since the 1950s, a persistent (and probably apocryphal) anecdote has King's official biographer McGregor Dawson intending to write a two-volume work. Dawson was said to have asked his U of T colleague Donald Creighton what title he might choose. "You called your biography Macdonald: The Young Politician and Macdonald: The Old Chieftain. Do you have a suggestion?"

"Well, McGregor," snorted Creighton, "I suppose you could call them King: The Young Son of a Bitch and King: The Old Son of a Bitch." Even diehard Liberals used to chuckle at that story.

People who know Dion (as I do not), including some MPs and senior civil servants, all attest that in committees and as a cabinet minister, he proved a quick study, smart, brisk, decisive. It is notable that Liberal delegates to the leadership convention originally gave him little or no chance of winning, but as the process unfolded and they came to know him better, his reputation grew until he slipped up the middle to victory. That may illustrate what one of my friends calls LHP: Long Haul Potential. He wears well.

Bear in mind the Liberal party has a history of stable leadership. For example, from 1887 to 1948, while the Tories shuffled through 11 different leaders, the Grits had precisely two: Laurier and King.

Remember also that when Laurier was appointed party head, he was generally thought to be a weak stopgap, but he persisted, and nine years later (1896) was elected prime minister; he held office for 15 uninterrupted years. Dion, despite mutterings in the short term, should feel his position is fairly secure.

It has often been said that the Liberals exhibit arrogance as a "governing party" and that Dion lacks this assertiveness. Possibly he is just naturally modest and does not bluster. However, any leader with Michael Ignatieff and Bob Rae at his side will find that his party has no shortage of arrogance on offer.

But there is one more major reason to believe that Dion may expect a political longevity similar to Mackenzie King's: the McLuhan factor. While King campaigned mostly on radio, obviously elections now are won or lost on TV, where Marshall McLuhan argues that "cool" candidates resonate more and last longer than "hot" ones. On my TV screen, Stephen Harper appears hard-edged, brittle, intense – that is, decidedly hot. Dion is certainly not glib or flashy, but more low-key, considered, ductile, may I say "sophisticated" than Harper, and often more restrained. His style may have a little more in common with the cool Barack Obama than with the hectoring Hillary Clinton. If the camera accepts and appreciates him over the long run, so, I believe, will a majority of voters.

If I'm right, Dion will have a strong and extended political life. You could bet on it – and remember that you read it here first.

Jack McLeod is an emeritus professor, political science, University of Toronto. His novel Uproar will be published this fall by The Porcupine's Quill.
 
The point is relative vote. The percentage of voters who went for the NDP dropped significantly since the last election, and Khaki was not a bad candidate.

Well I guess Tony Ianno's a shoo-in to take back Trinity-Spadina...not!

EFK sounded good on paper, and he he is a good guy, but he wasn't much of a campaigner. Rae is just a candidate of much greater magnitude in the race. If it was as Stephen Lewis running for the NDP and say, Meredith Cartwright running for the Libs instead of Rae, I think you'd agree we would have saw a very different race. Besides, in any byelection, the individual candidates matter more. It's not just the horse-race between the orange team, the red team and the blue team.

Even if the Liberals were doing badly, Kennedy would win. He's simply very personally popular in the riding.

The last time Kennedy was on the ballot was in 2003 when the NDP wasn't much of a force in the riding. Now they have a solid NDP incumbent and with Peggy Nash being well established, she is already the incumbent and a strong one at that (much stronger than Olivia Chow, in my view). That doesn't mean she's a lock but that she is certainly a force to be reckoned with. People won't just automatically vote for Kennedy because he's a failed Liberal leadership candidate who stuck the party with Dion and was on the ballot six years ago (assuming we won't be voting until 2009).

Anyway Dion appointing Kennedy intergovernmental affairs minister is not going to play well in Quebec and it sounds like quite a gamble just so they increase their chances of taking Parkdale-High Park to about 50/50.

Papineau? Not really. It even stayed Liberal through the Mulroney era. It's only the sponsorship scandal (and maybe, or maybe not, redistribution) that turned it "fairly swing-prone".

Changing ethnicity might also play a role. It has a large Greek population that came over to Canada when Trudeau was PM and votes overwhelmingly for the Liberals. But there are also large Haitian and Maghrebi communities there which are much more open to the Bloc.

Justin's a polarizing figure, and it can go either way. The Trudeau name may be enough to hold stop a lot of the bleeding of the BQ that a no-name or less controversial Liberal might have avoided, but even a slight BQ drop could put him over the top if he is able to hold down the Liberal vote.

Some say that the Outremont fiasco wouldn't have happened if Justin had run for the Liberals there, but my feeling is his presence would have encouraged even more of the Bloc vote to bolt to Mulcair.
 
Well I guess Tony Ianno's a shoo-in to take back Trinity-Spadina...not!

A shoo-in, no, but I don't think he stands a bad chance. Like I said, though, the reason for Kennedy's impending success is his strong personal base. Ianno has a personal base in T-S, but he turns some people off, too. A different candidate might do better, though he sure does know how to campaign!

EFK sounded good on paper, and he he is a good guy, but he wasn't much of a campaigner. Rae is just a candidate of much greater magnitude in the race. If it was as Stephen Lewis running for the NDP and say, Meredith Cartwright running for the Libs instead of Rae, I think you'd agree we would have saw a very different race. Besides, in any byelection, the individual candidates matter more. It's not just the horse-race between the orange team, the red team and the blue team.

I can't tell you how many NDPers I heard talking before the election about how Bob Rae would motivate NDP voters to come out and punish him, and that it would drive their vote up. Of course it would have been a different race with Stephen Lewis. That's exactly what I'm talking about: personal mandates. GK will have a personal mandate in Parkdale.

The last time Kennedy was on the ballot was in 2003 when the NDP wasn't much of a force in the riding. Now they have a solid NDP incumbent and with Peggy Nash being well established, she is already the incumbent and a strong one at that (much stronger than Olivia Chow, in my view). That doesn't mean she's a lock but that she is certainly a force to be reckoned with. People won't just automatically vote for Kennedy because he's a failed Liberal leadership candidate who stuck the party with Dion and was on the ballot six years ago (assuming we won't be voting until 2009).

Yeah, yeah, I've heard that before. This really is one of the stranger rationalizations on the part of NDPers. Thing is, I'd give people a little bit more credit than that. I just don't think seeing somebody's name on a ballot is the only thing that makes them remember him. Since 2003, Kennedy was named Minister of Education and was a serious candidate for the leadership of a federal party. I'd say that's pretty memorable. Aside from all that, he's a popular guy with many, many friends in the riding, and people don't just forget that.

Anyway Dion appointing Kennedy intergovernmental affairs minister is not going to play well in Quebec and it sounds like quite a gamble just so they increase their chances of taking Parkdale-High Park to about 50/50.

Haha...do you actually think his critic post has any bearing on him winning Parkdale? Or, for that matter, do you actually think that Liberals are worried about taking the riding?
 
I said Dion's appointment of Kennedy could potentially hurt the Liberals in Quebec, not P-HP.

I certainly never thought Rae would have any trouble, so I don't see how you're "yeah, yeah those delusional ultra-partisan NDPers said such and they were wrong" talk therefore adds any credibility to your argument. Every party has its most wild-eyed supporters, that's why you sometimes get Conservative predictions for Trinity-Spadina or Liberal predictions for Medicine Hat or NDP predictions for Thornhill on the election prediction site. I said in byelections the individual candidates matter much more. In TC it was Bob Rae the star candidate vs. some lesser known candidates, in a seat where the NDP didn't have the slightest chance of taking. Parkdale-High Park has been trending NDP in recent years and I don't see why all thes people will inevitably bolt en masse, especially with the NDP already holding the seat. I didn't realize there was going to be a byelection in Parkdale-High Park. Has Peggy Nash stepped aside already for Gerard the Inevitable?

Anyway I'm sure you won't be satisfied until you hear that Kennedy has a 99% chance of winning Parkdale-High Park, anyone who thinks otherwise must have some sort of biased agenda. Not going to happen.

One thing I can say about Parkdale-High Park is of all the Toronto ridings, it has probably seen the most pronounced move to the left. In the Broadbent years, the NDP would be lucky to get 20% of the vote in that riding and the Conservatives were more competitive then too because they took the Ukrainian DP vote (while the Liberals took the Polish vote overwhelmingly).
 
Or, for that matter, do you actually think that Liberals are worried about taking the riding?

I imagine ultra-partisan Libs think Gerard is a shoo-in, but I'm sure there are those that realize that it may not be a cakewalk and actually believe they have to fight hard for it. Similarly I think there are some NDPers that think Peggy Nash will have no trouble being re-elected. You can't count me as part of this group, all I've said is that the further away an election is, the worse for Kennedy. I'm not saying it's impossible for him to win, I just refuse to believe he's the Second Coming of the Christ you seem to make him out to be.
 
I said Dion's appointment of Kennedy could potentially hurt the Liberals in Quebec, not P-HP.

You said they gave him the role to help his election chances in Parkdale.

I certainly never thought Rae would have any trouble, so I don't see how you're "yeah, yeah those delusional ultra-partisan NDPers said such and they were wrong" talk therefore adds any credibility to your argument.

I was pointing it out in response to your opinion that the NDP's poor performance in the riding had to do with Bob Rae's personal popularity. I actually worried a bit that Rae could have a little trouble considering the NDP's traditionally excellent record in by-elections.

Parkdale-High Park has been trending NDP in recent years and I don't see why all thes people will inevitably bolt en masse, especially with the NDP already holding the seat.

I certainly don't think Nash would be very likely to lose it without an opponent with as strong a base as Gerard Kennedy.

I didn't realize there was going to be a byelection in Parkdale-High Park. Has Peggy Nash stepped aside already for Gerard the Inevitable?

Of course not. I don't know where you got that from...

Anyway I'm sure you won't be satisfied until you hear that Kennedy has a 99% chance of winning Parkdale-High Park, anyone who thinks otherwise must have some sort of biased agenda. Not going to happen.

Of course anything can happen. Hell, I suppose a truly bizarre vote split and abysmal Liberal campaign could even see the Conservatives elected! It's just not very likely. I'm simply responding to these strange rumours that have been spreading around that Gerard Kennedy is somehow forgotten in Parkdale just because he hasn't had a consituency office for a few months.

One thing I can say about Parkdale-High Park is of all the Toronto ridings, it has probably seen the most pronounced move to the left. In the Broadbent years, the NDP would be lucky to get 20% of the vote in that riding and the Conservatives were more competitive then too because they took the Ukrainian DP vote (while the Liberals took the Polish vote overwhelmingly).

DP?

Yup, it has moved to the left. The NDP's greater success, mind you, has had as much to do with unusual circumstances as anything. The Watson by-election, in particular, was handled pretty terribly by the Liberals, and DiNovo was a pretty good candidate. Peggy Nash was going up against a fairly low-profile MP with weak central party support, in a terrible year for the Liberals and great year for the NDP. In Ontario, the NDP got their highest percentage of the vote in history, which recent polls have shown is not likely to be repeated.

Obviously the traditional pattern of NDP support in gentrifying neighbourhoods holds true in Parkdale. The Liberals traditional immigrant support base is moving on.
 
You said they gave him the role to help his election chances in Parkdale.

Probably. But it could present a problem in Quebec, and I'd be worried more about Quebec than one GTA seat if I were a Lib.
Personally I don't think the Liberal strategists are actually dumb enough to think Kennedy is a shoo-in and take that attitude.


Displaced Persons from WWII. The post-war Ukrainian DPs hated Trudeau because he was supposedly too soft on the Soviet Union. Of course many of these people have since died off.
 
In Ontario, the NDP got their highest percentage of the vote in history.

1965 21.7%
1972 21.5%
1984 20.8%
1988 20.1%
2006 19.2%

What I will say is today's scenario would actually would have been better for Ed Broadbent than what he faced. But so far Layton hasn't really proven himself to be that kind of leader.
 
That's what I thought you meant, but I just wanted to make sure. You really shouldn't use the term DP. My mother, forty years later, never got over people who attacked her as a "DP" as a child. It's a term that's very hurtful for a lot of people.

Probably. But it could present a problem in Quebec, and I'd be worried more about Quebec than one GTA seat if I were a Lib.
Personally I don't think the Liberal strategists are actually dumb enough to think Kennedy is a shoo-in and take that attitude.

Probably? I guarantee that Kennedy's chances in Parkdale didn't enter Dion's mind when he made him the critic, for the simple reason that he knows that it wouldn't matter at all to Parkdale voters. His main objectives were to have another ally in the shadow cabinet, to give the last leadership contender a role, and to give intergovernmental affairs to someone whose views on the subject are relatively similar to his own, if more bravely articulated.

If I were a Liberal, actually, I wouldn't be worried about Quebec at all. Dion has his issues there, and Quebeckers will have to deal with them. Seatwise, the Liberals have pretty much nowhere to go but up. There are pretty much no seats they're likely to lose. Even under good circumstances, they're not going to win much more than a handful of additional seats. The Liberals would be much wiser to focus on places like Southwestern Ontario where they have a real chance to grab a half-dozen extra seats or more in a good campaign.

Jack Layton has been a very mixed leader, in my opinion. He's been great at raising the abysmal profile of the party under the AMs. He generally has good lines and often makes it into the paper, no easy task for an NDP leader. That being said, he's just not that likeable for a lot of people outside Toronto. "Too slick" seems to be the general opinion of a lot of people, fair or not. He's absolutely not the type to attract Western anti-Quebec populists who traditionally delivered the vast majority of the NDP's big seat hauls.

For that reason, I think Mulcair is a bit overrated as a potential leader. He's an impressive guy, but he's likely to draw the same kinds of people as Layton. He might win one or two more seats in Quebec, as Layton has in Toronto, but I can't see him moving the party too far beyond where it is today. I really think a Bill Blaikie type would be the best choice for leader. Unfortunately, they're in rather short supply these days. I don't know him that well, but what about somebody like Charlie Angus?

I think the biggest problem the NDP is causing itself right now is in its insistence on attacking the Liberals. I have a bunch of friends who trend NDP and who are now telling me they're definitely going either Liberal or Green, because the NDP keeps seemingly making nice to Harper and harping on about the Liberals. While it may energize the NDP base, it's just not the way to attract more centre-left voters.

Sorry. Haha...I obviously misspoke. I actually had "recent" written in there, but I must have deleted it.
 
It's hard for me to get a read of the depth and universality of Gerard Kennedy's base in P-HP today--there was always something a little too yuppie-pretty-boy Potemkin-ish about him. Like if you want four-eyed Liberal-identified (rightly or wrongly) young urban politicians, Adam Vaughan's more the real deal by 2008 standards.

Indeed, Kennedy's got his own Jack Laytonish "too slick" problem--methinks that even in the likelihood that Gerard wins versus Peggy Nash, it might be more akin to the "unforeseen" close call that Jack faced versus Dennis Mills in 2004...
 
That's what I thought you meant, but I just wanted to make sure. You really shouldn't use the term DP. My mother, forty years later, never got over people who attacked her as a "DP" as a child. It's a term that's very hurtful for a lot of people.

From A Teacher's Guide to the Holocaust:

DP: Displaced Person. The upheavals of war left millions of soldiers and civilians far from home. Millions of DPs had been eastern European slave laborers for the Nazis. The tens of thousands of Jewish survivors of Nazi camps either could not or did not want to return to their former homes in Germany or eastern Europe, and many lived in special DP camps while awaiting migration to America or Palestine.

http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/RESOURCE/glossary.htm#m

If that term is offensive I apologize (somebody needs to educate the "educators" then!) I'll refer to that community as "Ukrainian refugees from World War II" from now on.

Probably? I guarantee that Kennedy's chances in Parkdale didn't enter Dion's mind when he made him the critic, for the simple reason that he knows that it wouldn't matter at all to Parkdale voters.

Of course it does. Giving Kennedy a critic post gives him more access to te media.

I think the biggest problem the NDP is causing itself right now is in its insistence on attacking the Liberals. I have a bunch of friends who trend NDP and who are now telling me they're definitely going either Liberal or Green, because the NDP keeps seemingly making nice to Harper and harping on about the Liberals.

I think the Libs have lost the moral high ground (not that they have ever really had it) as being the main opposition to Harper. For someone who claims to hate the Harper government so much, Dion sure doesn't miss the opportunity to prop it up! Visit the NDP's website and it appears to me they are attacking the Conservatives more than the Liberals (as they should given that they are the government of Canada), but they criticize the Liberals for going along with Harper as well. Or is the problem that the NDP should only attack the Conservatives and if they EVER dare criticize the Libs, they're being "soft on Harper."

BTW in '74 David Lewis pretty much only attacked the Conservatives and avoided attacking the Liberals...and what good did that do?
 
http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/RESOURCE/glossary.htm#m

If that term is offensive I apologize (somebody needs to educate the "educators" then!) I'll refer to that community as "Ukrainian refugees from World War II" from now on.

Oh no worries, and you certainly don't have to apologize. I just wanted to point it out for future use. I think it's one of those terms that is so far detached from the present day that people forget the hurtful implications that it once had.

Of course it does. Giving Kennedy a critic post gives him more access to te media.

If anything, it pulls him out of the riding where he could otherwise be campaigning.


I think the Libs have lost the moral high ground (not that they have ever really had it) as being the main opposition to Harper. For someone who claims to hate the Harper government so much, Dion sure doesn't miss the opportunity to prop it up! Visit the NDP's website and it appears to me they are attacking the Conservatives more than the Liberals (as they should given that they are the government of Canada), but they criticize the Liberals for going along with Harper as well. Or is the problem that the NDP should only attack the Conservatives and if they EVER dare criticize the Libs, they're being "soft on Harper."

I think the NDP have always been very good about claiming the "moral high ground," which is very easy when you know whatever you do has very little effect. I think the Liberals should have forced an election long ago, but you can't argue that the majority of average people would rather see the minority government continue to work. The NDP can feel free to vote against the government all it wants, but if the Liberals keep voting against Harper's bills, we'd have non-stop elections.

A couple years ago, the NDP defeated a government, preventing the implementation of a real national child care program, the Kelowna accord, and a whole bunch of other things, because they felt they could win a few more seats. Now there's moral high ground for ya!

BTW in '74 David Lewis pretty much only attacked the Conservatives and avoided attacking the Liberals...and what good did that do?

In 1974, the Conservatives weren't the government. What good did it do? It got a progressive government elected.
 
Re: Of course there was the Trudeau-Lewis working agreement of '72 to '74 - then Trudeau and went on to get a majority. PET then proceeded to move to the right afterwards. Of course one difference between Trudeau and Martin was that Martin was very much a blue Lib and Trudeau, whatever one thinks of him, had some social democratic inclinations. Trudeau ended up getting the credit for a lot of Lewis' initiatives, and Lewis lost in his own riding to some nobody.

The Liberals can scream "the NDP killed childcare" all they like, but the fact is the Liberals had majority governments they did zilch about childcare. All that happened was the delay of the election by a few months - Martin was committed to going into an election shortly afterwards. I don't think the NDP being "Robin" to the Liberals' "Batman" would have done any good given that most Canadians wanted the Liberals out. I also think these calls for a "Popular Front" (dominated by the Liberals) have lost a lot of credibility under Dion's disastrous leadership.

But anyway I think what we're seeing more than anything is just disgust with politics and its increasing irrelevance to the average Canadian.
 

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