[Darren B]

Finch East and other routes (like King) being busier than Queen isn't a cheap shot...it's a cold, hard fact. If I forgot frequency why did I ask you what the frequency of the Queen streetcar was? When a streetcar doesn't show up for 20 minutes, yeah, there might be a crowd onboard (if potential riders haven't just walked away). Finch buses, however, show up every 2 minutes, completely full. Finch East night buses are also surprisingly busy, by the way. Yet I'm not saying Finch deserves a subway.

You and Keith should really stop bringing up King vs Queen, as we all agreeed that for argument's sake that one means the other. And both the 501 and the 504 run every 2-5 minutes, with every third one being articulated.

 

[Darren B]

Fair enough - in particular the Main, Woodbine, and Coxwell buses are used like this, where people are avoding the 501, and even 506 cars. On the flip side though, I live closer to the subway than the 501, and outside of rush-hour, I use the subway, or the 506 to get downtown. In rush-hour I often walk to Kingston Road because 506/504/501 is too many changes, and Bloor-Yonge is too crowded. So if Bloor-Yonge worked better, (say the new platforms, etc.), I'd actually be more likely to use it.

You and I must live close by. In the AM, I will stick with the 506 most of the time over the subway. I could in theory then transfer at College and go south, but instead I transfer to the 504 at Broadview. I've thrown out the idea of a 504/506 hybrid running 1 in every 4 cars from Main to a few streetcar operator friends, and they liked the idea but doubted the TTC would buy into it. The car would run as a 504 from Dundas west, and then go east at Bradview/Gerrard, to Main and back again.

 

[andomano]

The DRL will be built as planned, Pape to Queen and then west on Queen to Ronce and up to Dunas west. If demand warrants its, one day an extension could be made east along Queen and if need be north into Souther S'ough. Its vry do-able

Incorrect; if it's built as planned, the outcome would be this.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You and Keith should really stop bringing up King vs Queen, as we all agreeed that for argument's sake that one means the other. And both the 501 and the 504 run every 2-5 minutes, with every third one being articulated.

Uh, you brought it up. You keep bringing it up. Queen is simply not the busiest surface route, and depending on how it's built a DRL may not even do much to relieve it.

There was a time when Queen was much more frequent and much busier. It peaked at 60,000 daily according to what I have read on Mr. Munro's blog. I'm sure a lot of people just got fed up with the crappy service and used the BD feeder buses to get up to the subway to head downtown. If a DRL could capture some of those people and get them to use a shortened feeder into a "Queen East" station (or even Gerrard), it could help out a lot at Bloor-Yonge.

The number of people living along Queen was a bit higher back then, too (the Parkdale/Riverdale areas are currently losing roughly 1% of their population every year), so there's more involved than just crappy service. Still, any route/corridor would see higher ridership if service was improved, and the longer people are travelling, the easier it is to shift them to other routes like the DRL, even for part of their trip...that's why the DRL needs to be well-integrated with the east/west routes downtown. Hopefully, a DRL study would include a realistic assessment of how people are actually using all the surface routes that the DRL might affect (not just anecdotes about crowded vehicles).

 

[andomano]

Still, any route/corridor would see higher ridership if service was improved, and the longer people are travelling, the easier it is to shift them to other routes like the DRL, even for part of their trip...that's why the DRL needs to be well-integrated with the east/west routes downtown. Hopefully, a DRL study would include a realistic assessment of how people are actually using all the surface routes that the DRL might affect (not just anecdotes about crowded vehicles).

On that note, it would be interesting to find out how many people are using alternative routes, such as catching the 504 and 505 at Broadview, to get downtown and avoid Yonge/Bloor. I'm sure some of King Street's high ridership levels would be due to this.

 

[Darren B]

Incorrect; if it's built as planned, the outcome would be this.

Thats not an official plan. That just happens to be the vision of a supporter of the DRL, from the way he would like to see it.
If anything the only official TTC report of late was the report that was presented to council on the crucial vote this past January referenced Queen twice in relation to the DRL, as in "Pape to Queen". I recall seeing a map of just the eastern half as well. It also stated that a secondary benefit of the DRL would be to alleviate the Queen/King cars. This was back in January when other then a few hardcore fans, the DRL was not on the radar. That report was the one that 'sold' the idea to council and alleviated the DRL to many people's attention.

I just got in, and have a few things to take care. If anyone wants the report then I'll find it later this evening.

 

[Darren B]

On that note, it would be interesting to find out how many people are using alternative routes, such as catching the 504 and 505 at Broadview, to get downtown and avoid Yonge/Bloor. I'm sure some of King Street's high ridership levels would be due to this.

Yeah...that is my commute in a nutshell. I avoid the subway and transfer to the 504. Its logical, as it dissects the core, much like the DRL would.

Edit - Just a FYI, that the 504 from Broadview runs 2-5 minutes and it also runs articulated cars. Most mornings by the time the streetcar arrvies at Gerrard going southbound there is no seating avaialble, even on articulated cars. Some mornings there is hardly any standing room, and the driver if asked he may break the rules and open the back doors to let in more riders at Gerrard. Some space is made when it reaches Queen or the next stop Carroll as a few people transfer to the 501. The interesting thing is that more riders exit then enter by the time the 504 reaches Yonge. They exit heavily at River, Parliment, Sherbourne, Jarvis, and less so at Church. It reaches Yonge and there is actually seating room again on the car.

 

[CDL.TO]

Thats not an official plan. That just happens to be the vision of a supporter of the DRL, from the way he would like to see it.

Okay, this like the eighth friggin time this has been pointed out. That route is NOT the vision of a supporter/fanboy/whoever. That route is taken from the only official plan and study of the Downtown Relief Line* that has ever been done by the government, which was in the 1980s as part of the Network 2011 plan. You were there at Union station when a fellow forum member explained all this! Did you not even give him the courtesy of listening to what he had to say?

Yes, lots of documents have referred to a Queen subway line recently, including the Metrolinx reports. But an exact route has not been studied or determined. As said, the map you see above illustrates the only official route that has ever existed, and to prevent bias and editorializing that is the route that is used in the Transit Toronto article and in all the DRL Advocacy documentation.

*(Older studies of a Queen subway exist as well, but predate the concept of a relief line)

 

[Darren B]

Wow, that is a bit of an over reaction. I forgot some of a conversation I was privy to a month ago. Can someone not make a mistake, and it pointed out in a more civil manner?

 

[CDL.TO]

That wasn't some of the conversation. That was what the entire conversation and tour of Union station was about.

I also suggested several few weeks ago that people read the DRL article on Transit Toronto so clearly false statements could be avoided. This just shows that you ignored my advice and have simply continued as before.

Sorry if I'm harsh, but I guess I'm just frustrated about having to explain things over and over again. Clearly, going in circles gets everyone nowhere.
`

 

[nfitz]

Okay, this like the eighth friggin time this has been pointed out. That route is NOT the vision of a supporter/fanboy/whoever. That route is taken from the only official plan and study of the Downtown Relief Line* that has ever been done by the government, which was in the 1980s as part of the Network 2011 plan.

It was ... but given that it is now a quarter-century old, and based on assumptions that are no longer valid, it really has little more relevance now, than the 1960s plans of the Donlands to Queen subway line. If the folks at TTC and Metrolinx were out there saying Union, maybe ... but they aren't. Anytime they show or say something in particular, it comes out as Queen.

 

[greenleaf]

This theoretical subway line was really easy to do in google maps.

I actually don't know the west end as well, so those station locations and routing may be terrible!

 

[kEiThZ]

Darren, CDL.TO is right. You know as well as everyone here that the city's intentions on the Queen subway and the DRL were completely different and from two different time periods. I haven't attended any presentations and I know that there is a difference. Misinformation is not going to further debate, intentional or accidental. We can debate whether those plans are still valid or relevant but none of us should be confusing or conflating the historical record.

As for the council motion, we'll see. When they say 'Pape to Queen' that could mean a whole bunch of things not in the least that their hope is to relieve the current network from Pape to Queen. And the Queen and King streetcars will obviously get relief even if the DRL isn't on Queen, albeit maybe not as much simply because they will intersect the line. So I wouldn't read in too much in too statements saying that it'll relieve the Queen or King streetcars. If somebody has the motion they can put it up...but I think its kinda relevant to the discussion about alignments at hand....

 

[kEiThZ]

One question I'll bring up is which alignment will have the most new ridership? Anybody wanna take a stab at this one?

I bring this up because I get the sense looking at provincial and federal transit dollars that are unlikely to help pay for a line that does not attract any new ridership but simply makes existing ones more comfortable. That could be a problem where we want to relieve a streetcar line obviously. And that could be a problem for the whole DRL if the higher levels of government don't believe that new ridership will come from relieving Yonge/Bloor. Regardless of my preference, I think the one that'll actually sell is the alignment with the most new ridership. I'd be hard pressed to guess which alignment that would be right now.

 

[andomano]

One question I'll bring up is which alignment will have the most new ridership? Anybody wanna take a stab at this one?

Isn't that essentially subjectively answered by the poll results?