[Paleo]

If we really want to run it along Queen I don't have too much problem with that, as long as it still goes through Union station. The only other good link for the DRL in my opinion is Dundas. I can picture Yonge and Dundas befitting a subway interchange, but not Yonge & Queen.

What makes Yonge and Dundas "befitting"? Something in your gut?

The problem with Union is that it is too far south of the CBD and Dundas is too far north. Both are impractical.

Not to mention the difficulties in adding more underground infrastructure in those places. Look at how much difficulty they are having just adding one platform or connecting the fare paid zones.

Another strike against Union, just scroll down a few threads. One busted water main and the entire station is shut down. A perfect example of what happens when you have one single point of failure.

 

[urbanfan89]

Another strike against Union, just scroll down a few threads. One busted water main and the entire station is shut down. A perfect example of what happens when you have one single point of failure.

Or alternatively they could choose not to skip on infrastructure maintenance and never have a burst water main.

You're also implying that if there was an incident at Yonge and Dundas when the DRL passes through Dundas, both lines will *not* be shut down, which is of course false.

 

[Railization]

Or alternatively they could choose not to skip on infrastructure maintenance and never have a burst water main.

You're also implying that if there was an incident at Yonge and Dundas when the DRL passes through Dundas, both lines will *not* be shut down, which is of course false.

You're not familiar with what happened at Union when the water main broke. The line was not shut down, but the station was. Trains passed through Union, despite the flooding, but did not stop there.

If the DRL and YUS only connect at Union, then a problem, such as the water main case, could shut down one or both lines' stations (depends on the nature of the problem), causing one or both lines to skip Union, even if the lines themselves are not shut down.

By contrast, you don't run into that problem by using King, Queen, both via Richmond/Adelaide, or (however unlikely if not impossible) Dundas, because there'll be two stations to connect with, one at Uni, and one at Yonge St., allowing people to go through the "U" in the event of their regular transfer station being shut down.

 

[Railization]

I think you're confusing Union Train Station with Union Subway Station. GO Transit doesn't actually dump a lot of riders on Union Subway Station. Having taken GO to school for 3 years, the vast majority of GO users walk right on past the subway station and into the PATH network. Some use the subway station, but it's really not that busy. Add the DRL through Union and then you give GO riders even more directions to go (4 choices rather than 2--North to Downsview, North to Finch, West to Dundas West, and East to Pape).

Of the 150,000 that GO pumps through Union daily, yes, a minority are going to be going to the subway, since GO is carrying almost twice as many riders anyway. However, say 20% of GO traffic connects to the subway, it still contributes 37% of the ridership at Union Subway. It's very substantial.

However, even the people that aren't using the subway still pass through the subway area that is flanked by fare gates on both sides. This is a terrible design and has long been a source of headaches when it comes to managing the huge volumes of passengers flowing through this overcongested area with omni-directional traffic. Part of the second platform project is to resolve this mess by creating a central fare-paid area instead of 2 seprate fare-paid areas on different sides of the through-traffic route like exists currently.

In any case, it has to be remembered that even a fairly small fraction of ridership, like the hypothetical 1/5 I gave (20%), it's a very large chunk of the Union Subway Station traffic per day. Don't underestimate it for a second.

For those coming by GO that want to go to Pape, it makes far more sense for them to take GO to the Riverdale area and transfer there. For those that want to go to Dufferin or points further west, it makes far more sense for them to take GO to Liberty Village and transfer there. Keep that transfer traffic away from Union, and keep the DRL away from Union altogether. Take the DRL to where it will be most useful; the most heavily trafficked part of the Yonge line, and the most heavily used core surface routes: Between King and Queen. Union is not important to the DRL when the DRL connects to GO (all lines but Richmond Hill, unless it goes north to Eglinton, then it does Richmond Hill too) at other stations further east and west.

 

[nfitz]

You're not familiar with what happened at Union when the water main broke. The line was not shut down, but the station was. Trains passed through Union, despite the flooding, but did not stop there.

What, for a few hours one day? Big deal. Yesterday's forgotten bag and evacutation of Jane station, and complete closing of the Bloor line is far worse - and that kind of thing happens every week.

 

[Railization]

Excuse me, but there is not a bomb threat every week.

And it was just an example of the kind of a single system choke point, like Yonge and Bloor today, that we want to avoid repeating with the DRL. It is possible to design the DRL to connect to more than one YUS station, and it would be extremely foolish to not connect it to at least two stations with at least one on each line (Yonge Line and University Line), especially when there's no sensible argument for it to go to Union for a myriad of reasons that have already been covered.

 

[nfitz]

Excuse me, but there is not a bomb threat every week.

Didn't say they was - no am I aware of any recently. There is however closures of part of a line, due to one incident or another every week. And I think that's a massive understatement. 3 or 4 times a week is more likely - not sure why I lowball something, and you still object. You seem to be more interested, in arguing the number of fairies on the head of a pin, than the issue.

It is possible to design the DRL to connect to more than one YUS station, and it would be extremely foolish to not connect it to at least two stations with at least one on each line (Yonge Line and University Line), especially when there's no sensible argument for it to go to Union for a myriad of reasons that have already been covered.

Then argue the real reasons, without inventing new ones. Though I'd think that given the expense of tunelling from Yonge to University through the heart of downtown, that phase 1 will more likely than not stop at Yonge.

 

[Railization]

Didn't say they was - no am I aware of any recently.

You just mentioned the incident at Jane, so you must be aware of it. Everybody was evacuated because of a forgotten bag, a forgotten bag that was thought to be a bomb.

There is however closures of part of a line, due to one incident or another every week. And I think that's a massive understatement. 3 or 4 times a week is more likely

OK, I ride daily, and although I'm on very early in the AM rush, I'm in the heart of the PM rush (luckily in the reverse peak), and although I frequently encounter signal problems at Davisville, I don't encounter bomb scares, attempted murders, shootings, knifings, power outages, or water main bursts on a weekly basis, nor a bi-daily basis as you suggest is actually the case. These are all incidents that would be broadcast across the system, not necessarily in full detail, but everybody on the subway network would be made aware of such. Signal problems, yes, absolutely, I encounter that one quite frequently, but everything else, you're pulling numbers out of thin air, probably because of the media that's on a rampage with this "TTC Crime Wave" sensationalism.

- not sure why I lowball something, and you still object. You seem to be more interested, in arguing the number of fairies on the head of a pin, than the issue.

You seem more interested in flame-baiting than articulating your points more clearly.

Then argue the real reasons, without inventing new ones. Though I'd think that given the expense of tunelling from Yonge to University through the heart of downtown, that phase 1 will more likely than not stop at Yonge.

Do tell what reasons I've invented and explain how they're invented.

I can tell you for a guaranteed fact though, that the DRL tracks will be guranteed to cross Yonge St. Why? Tail tracks are a requirement (safety standard).

 

[toraerach]

For those coming by GO that want to go to Pape, it makes far more sense for them to take GO to the Riverdale area and transfer there. For those that want to go to Dufferin or points further west, it makes far more sense for them to take GO to Liberty Village and transfer there. Keep that transfer traffic away from Union, and keep the DRL away from Union altogether. Take the DRL to where it will be most useful; the most heavily trafficked part of the Yonge line, and the most heavily used core surface routes: Between King and Queen. Union is not important to the DRL when the DRL connects to GO (all lines but Richmond Hill, unless it goes north to Eglinton, then it does Richmond Hill too) at other stations further east and west.

I don't think that will keep the traffic away from Union. People will still need to transfer between GO lines at Union and considering that subway frequency GO service is years off, you might even cause more crowding (all those people waiting around for their transfers).

There are good reasons for putting the DRL down Queen, and good reasons for running it down to Union (not to mention King, Front/Wellington, anything really between Queen and the rail corridor). We're just going to have to wait for a thorough study on this. There are so many variables that have to be taken into consideration as a new line downtown will affect so many transit riders, change so many travel patterns, and change so many neighbourhoods. One thing that has to be taken into account is what stations on the Yonge and University lines could accomodate the increased traffic best. Is that Union? Is it Queen/Osgoode? Is it King/St. Andrew? I don't know.

There are many other variables that haven't really been explored in this thread. For example, we need to know what's already in the ground. Where are the ground conditions best for a subway? Where are major utilities located? Where is the best place for the line to cross the Don? Would a subway line compromise any nearby building's structural integrity? I'm not an engineer, so I don't know. I don't even know if I'm asking the right questions.

 

[nfitz]

You just mentioned the incident at Jane, so you must be aware of it. Everybody was evacuated because of a forgotten bag, a forgotten bag that was thought to be a bomb.

Yes .... duh ... I mentioned that incident - so of course I'm aware of it. Why would I not be aware of something I pointed out. I'm not aware of any bomb threats though; just forgotten bags.

OK, I ride daily, and although I'm on very early in the AM rush, I'm in the heart of the PM rush (luckily in the reverse peak), and although I frequently encounter signal problems at Davisville, I don't encounter bomb scares, attempted murders, shootings, knifings, power outages, or water main bursts on a weekly basis, nor a bi-daily basis as you suggest is actually the case.

Good grief, are you kidding? What, the entire TTC centres around you, so if you don't encounter a delay every week, there isn't a delay every week? Here, let's just look through my deleted mail from the TTC in the last few weeks.
Feb 26 - 8 pm, Bloor-Danforth closed Royal York to High Park (the Jane incident)
Feb 26 - 6:56 pm, Spadina closed St. George to Spadina
Feb 25 - 11:07 pm, Danforth closed Woodbine to Kennedy
Feb 20 - 9:42 pm, YUS closed Osgoode to Bloor
Feb 17 - 1:38 pm, Sheppard closed entire length
Feb 16 - 7:27 pm, YUS closed Downsview to Wilson
Feb 13 - 4:52 pm, Bloor closed Ossington to Keele (Dufferin incident)
Feb 12 - 4:59, YUS closed Downsview to Yorkdale
Feb 11 - 11:11 pm YUS closed St. Andrew to King
Feb 10 - 9:55 pm, Bloor closed Sherbourne to Bay

I don't recall any of these being weather (though there were a lot of those in January). I think the estimate is 1 or 2 jumpers a week. Not sure why your even debating when I say there is at least 1 closure a week.

I can tell you for a guaranteed fact though, that the DRL tracks will be guranteed to cross Yonge St. Why? Tail tracks are a requirement (safety standard).

More likely because the platform will be under Yonge ... but I'd think there would be some tail tracks as well ... I don't think anyone said otherwise.

 

[Railization]

I don't think that will keep the traffic away from Union. People will still need to transfer between GO lines at Union and considering that subway frequency GO service is years off, you might even cause more crowding (all those people waiting around for their transfers).

While subway frequency is a long ways off, through-service of GO lines will be coming sooner than people may be expecting. For example, we may start seeing Bradford trains run through on the Stouffville Line as early as next year. This through-routing is one of the measures GO is implementing to manage capacity in the long-term, because taking trains out of service or turning them around at Union both eat up significant amounts of capacity that could be better used for actual service. It's a management thing rather than the design of Union itself. The point is though that this makes other lines work just like the Lakeshore in that trains don't necessarily terminate at Union but continue beyond it. Any train coming from the east would continue west towards Liberty Village or, in Lakeshore's case, the Exhibition. All trains travelling east except Richmond Hill would reach the Riverdale area, too. Some trains coming from the west would still have to terminate around the Distillery, since there're fewer lines on the east side than on the west. The Distillery station is going to have to be a special design for GO, as it would have a relationship to its new Don Yard, but minimizing turn-backs at Union has significant value, even if the turn-backs end up happening a short distance away.

One thing that has to be taken into account is what stations on the Yonge and University lines could accomodate the increased traffic best. Is that Union? Is it Queen/Osgoode? Is it King/St. Andrew? I don't know.

This point actually isn't as important as people think it is. The reason for that is because the DRL is going to be taking so many riders away from King and/or Queen among other stations in the first place that the problems these stations see today already will subside substantially. That opens up room. Because the DRL is going to have its own platform and exits to get people from the station to the surface without going through the existing Yonge stations, the existing stations need not be renovated to accomodate increased traffic, as their traffic will go down, which is part of the whole point of the DRL. This is part of the reason why it shouldn't go to Union, too, I'd add.

There will of course be some transfer traffic, that's a given, but the idea is to align it where most people won't need to transfer, based on where their trips are originating. The trip-origin factor contributes to the reason why GO riders can be intercepted by the DRL at locations other than Union quite easily.

There are many other variables that haven't really been explored in this thread. For example, we need to know what's already in the ground. Where are the ground conditions best for a subway? Where are major utilities located? Where is the best place for the line to cross the Don? Would a subway line compromise any nearby building's structural integrity? I'm not an engineer, so I don't know. I don't even know if I'm asking the right questions.

Great point/question. I touched on this in the briefest possible way in my first post in this thread (which was also my first on this site).

There are going to be some smaller buildings that will inevitably require property aquisition no matter where the subway runs, since squeezing narrow stairwells into the sidewalk isn't acceptable anymore like is done at Dundas station or King station. Large buildings are a whole different kettle of fish though, and you make a good point on that note. One of the advantages of splitting the line by direction down Richmond/Adelaide is that it gives more wiggle room with respect to the existing megastructures, even at stations.

 

[Railization]

Yes .... duh ... I mentioned that incident - so of course I'm aware of it. Why would I not be aware of something I pointed out. I'm not aware of any bomb threats though; just forgotten bags.

Put two and two together already, the forgotten bag is the suspected bomb! That's why they closed part of the line. Should be obvious.

Good grief, are you kidding? What, the entire TTC centres around you, so if you don't encounter a delay every week, there isn't a delay every week? Here, let's just look through my delete mail from the TTC in the last few weeks.
Feb 26 - 8 pm, Bloor-Danforth closed Royal York to High Park (the Jane incident)
Feb 26 - 6:56 pm, Spadina closed St. George to Spadina
Feb 25 - 11:07 pm, Danforth closed Woodbine to Kennedy
Feb 20 - 9:42 pm, YUS closed Osgoode to Bloor
Feb 17 - 1:38 pm, Sheppard closed entire length
Feb 16 - 7:27 pm, YUS closed Downsview to Wilson
Feb 13 - 4:52 pm, Bloor closed Ossington to Keele (Dufferin incident)
Feb 12 - 4:59, YUS closed Downsview to Yorkdale
Feb 11 - 11:11 pm YUS closed St. Andrew to King
Feb 10 - 9:55 pm, Bloor closed Sherbourne to Bay

What, for a few hours one day? Big deal.

Anyway, Sherbourne? You can't turn trains back at Castle Frank, there's no crossover anywhere around there. St. Andrew to King on the 11th, same story, no crossover at King or Queen, and turning back at Osgoode is slow as molasses, the TTC wouldn't do that. These are not incidents that shut the line down, these are cases where the TTC is skipping a stop, Yonge and Union, respectively, in these cases. Also, the Feb 12th stabbing incident didn't close the line down, trains ran through Wilson without stopping. Feb. 16th also wouldn't have closed Wilson, only Downsview, because trains can't turn back at Yorkdale. It's brutally obvious you're distorting the facts. This is why I dispute your points.

More likely because the platform will be under Yonge ... but I'd think there would be some tail tracks as well ... I don't think anyone said otherwise.

The platform is not guaranteed to be under Yonge, as it could be unnecessarily disruptive to do it that way. Anyway, you were talking about tunneling from Yonge to University being too expensive. The reason it would be expensive is the existing subways it crosses. If tail tracks have to be built anyway, you don't dodge the expense of crossing the existing subway(s).

 

[nfitz]

Put two and two together already, the forgotten bag is the suspected bomb! That's why they closed part of the line. Should be obvious.

Yes, suspected bomb ... not sure why that wasn't obvious to you to begin with.

But I'm not aware of any threats being made. You seem so hell-bent here, that perhaps you will start phoning them in, simply so you can be right!

These are not incidents that shut the line down, these are cases where the TTC is skipping a stop, Yonge and Union, respectively, in these cases. Also, the Feb 12th stabbing incident didn't close the line down, trains ran through Wilson without stopping. Feb. 16th also wouldn't have closed Wilson, only Downsview, because trains can't turn back at Yorkdale. It's brutally obvious you're distorting the facts. This is why I dispute your points.

Hang on, my simple point is that there is at least one subway closure a week. You dispute this, and I then demonstrate that there are many each week, and now your trying to argue something else, and say I'm distorting the facts? You seem far more interested in arguing with people here than anything else - and it's pretty dull. Where is the ignore button?

 

[Dan416]

I still think that the DRL missing Union would be a big mistake. You'd be telling GO riders who want to take the DRL that they have to take YUS one or two stations north on Yonge or University to get to the DRL, and then transfer. That's ridiculous. We should be REDUCING transfers and speeding up travel time. Unfortunately, increasing transfers is what the TTC does best.

TTC = Tantamount to Transfer Craziness

 

[nfitz]

I still think that the DRL missing Union would be a big mistake. You'd be telling GO riders who want to take the DRL that they have to take YUS one or two stations north on Yonge or University to get to the DRL, and then transfer. That's ridiculous.

Less ridiculous than Danforth riders who want to take the GO walking a 1/4 mile to Danforth station ... or Sheppard riders dealing with the joke at Oriole.

But surely many GO riders will switch to DRL at new stations, where the DRL crosses GO.

And of course, the relief line is to relieve Bloor-Yonge. Not Union. What do the computer models indicate the impact is on Bloor-Yonge if the connection is at Union compared to King or Queen?