[CapitalSeven]

The 11 stations on the Yonge-University from Wellesley to Museum are used by about half a million passengers per day. This is a line running into downtown from two directions. More riders get on at Bloor and then get off at the 11 stations, some of them very busy, some of them less. Imagine a line running into downtown area from two directions that has only one station in the central business district. Even were its ridership half of the older line's, the best part of a quarter of a million people per day would be trying to get off at one station. Now imagine that line on a day when there is a malfunction or accident on the Yonge-University, so that everyone tries to reroute to the DRL. Now how does that one station at Bay and Queen look? What happens when its escalators break?

 

[kkgg7]

The 11 stations on the Yonge-University from Wellesley to Museum are used by about half a million passengers per day. This is a line running into downtown from two directions. More riders get on at Bloor and then get off at the 11 stations, some of them very busy, some of them less. Imagine a line running into downtown area from two directions that has only one station in the central business district. Even were its ridership half of the older line's, the best part of a quarter of a million people per day would be trying to get off at one station. Now imagine that line on a day when there is a malfunction or accident on the Yonge-University, so that everyone tries to reroute to the DRL. Now how does that one station at Bay and Queen look? What happens when its escalators break?

Don't worry. Toronto/GTA's population is not big enough to warrant such a concern over overcrowding.

 

[MisterF]

I don't disagree, but the thing is, the whole conception of the DRL *is* something to relieve existing subway lines -- hence the "R" in its name -- so it had better perform the relief function well. I would love to see a new downtown subway, but realistically, that has never been the official justification for the DRL. If it gets built, it will be because the crowding at Bloor-Yonge reaches hazardous levels and no more trains can be squeezed down Yonge. The unfortunate political reality is that this appears to be the only way to justify a new subway downtown -- regardless of how much the King/Queen corridor might deserve a subway on its own merits.

This is unfortunately true. But a DRL on Queen would to the job better than a DRL to Union, IMO. Look at it this way - the heart if the financial district is at King. Buildings like FCP and Scotia are just as close to Queen as they are to Union. Bay-Adelaide is much closer to Queen. A Queen line would be used by office workers several blocks to the south and north. It would also spread the crowds around downtown so that a wider area is served and everyone isn't dumped at Union. Not to mention avoiding the duplication of two rapid transit corridors on the same alignment.

 

[toraerach]

The 11 stations on the Yonge-University from Wellesley to Museum are used by about half a million passengers per day. This is a line running into downtown from two directions. More riders get on at Bloor and then get off at the 11 stations, some of them very busy, some of them less. Imagine a line running into downtown area from two directions that has only one station in the central business district. Even were its ridership half of the older line's, the best part of a quarter of a million people per day would be trying to get off at one station. Now imagine that line on a day when there is a malfunction or accident on the Yonge-University, so that everyone tries to reroute to the DRL. Now how does that one station at Bay and Queen look? What happens when its escalators break?

Since very few people (relatively speaking) will stay on the DRL through the downtown core, I don't see a problem with spreading out downtown-bound traffic over as many stations as possible. A station at Yonge, a station at University, and maybe even a third station at Bay would help spread out the load and ensure that there are alternatives when there is a service disruption anywhere on the line - say, for example, a security concern at Yonge-Queen/Yonge-King, or a closure of the Yonge line that leaves the trains running on University.

 

[nfitz]

Toronto/GTA's population is not big enough to warrant such a concern over overcrowding.

Yes it is. Even today I saw people lining up on the platform at King Station at mid-day (not even rush hour!) to go up the narrow stairs, because the elevator was being serviced. Not that easy for people to come down the stairs. Overcrowding during closures or maintenance is a huge problem now, and will only get worse.

 

[kkgg7]

This is unfortunately true. But a DRL on Queen would to the job better than a DRL to Union, IMO. Look at it this way - the heart if the financial district is at King. Buildings like FCP and Scotia are just as close to Queen as they are to Union. Bay-Adelaide is much closer to Queen. A Queen line would be used by office workers several blocks to the south and north. It would also spread the crowds around downtown so that a wider area is served and everyone isn't dumped at Union. Not to mention avoiding the duplication of two rapid transit corridors on the same alignment.

I am completely agree with you on that.
Putting Union at the very south edge is already a mistake. It is simply silly for the DRL to go through Union again. Union basically serves people who head to one side (North), while Queen is more centrally located and make the walk shorter for more people who work in downtown.

 

[M II A II R II K]

I say a Queen alignment with a dipped down station at Bay & Wellington which would also host the Lakeshore GO Train lines and a convenient walk with moving ramps to get to Union.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The deepest subway station in the world, at 102 metres (334.646 feet) is in Arsenalna (Ukrainian: Арсенальна, Russian: Арсенальная Arsenalnaya) station on Kiev Metro's Sviatoshynsko-Brovarska Line.

A DRL does not have to be under Queen or King, just have the escalators (and stairs) angled so that they reach an entrance at or near Queen Street. The distance between King Street and Queen Street is about 388 metres. The distance between Queen Street and Richmond Street is 80 metres. Between Queen and Adelaide it's 230 metres. Putting a line deep under buildings halfway between King and Queen could have the escalators angling up so to reach both King and Queen.


[video=youtube;TWqNqm1GJbA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWqNqm1GJbA[/video]

 

[Markster]

Good lord that escalator is slow.
When I visited Armenia, and rode their soviet-era subway, they had the escalators going at least twice as fast. You had to walk full stride onto those.

 

[noctis]

imagine having to do maintenance on these escalators...

so yea, gettin back on topic, what was wrong with the original DRL plan? i thought it made a lot of sense and looked feasible...

 

[Chuck]

The central part of Queen should remain all about local traffic.

I never understood the notion that streetcars provide the best local transit. Both the Bloor line and the Yonge line (Bloor to Eglinton in particular) frankly provide the best local transit in the entire city, despite there being no surface transit and subway stations that are 700-1000 metres apart. You never have to wait more than 5 minutes, never have to walk more than 10 minutes, never have to wait outside in the rain or cold, and typically reach your destination in minutes. What more could you possible want of a transit line?

We should strive for an inner city that has a subway oriented local transit system. The DRL should run along Queen as it would put the majority of the downtown area within a 10 minute walk of a subway station. The TTC should also operate a subway shuttle between Union Station and The Ex. Long term, I'd like there to be a subway along College and Spadina, with streetcars only operating on Bathurst, Queen's Quay, Dundas, King, and St. Clair.

 

[Palma]

Streetcars provide the best local transit because (in my opinion), stops are close, you are able to see what the street has to offer and I think it contributes to the vibrancy of the street. Its a different feel than along a subway route

 

[toraerach]

I never understood the notion that streetcars provide the best local transit. Both the Bloor line and the Yonge line (Bloor to Eglinton in particular) frankly provide the best local transit in the entire city, despite there being no surface transit and subway stations that are 700-1000 metres apart. You never have to wait more than 5 minutes, never have to walk more than 10 minutes, never have to wait outside in the rain or cold, and typically reach your destination in minutes. What more could you possible want of a transit line?

With a DRL routed elsewhere, the Queen streetcar will attract fewer long distance commuter-type trips and service could be tailored to those making short hop-on/hop-off thoroughly local-type trips. This means frequent stops, direct at-grade access (no staircases), a view of the streetscape, etc. I'm not convinced that a subway that's primary goal is to funnel transfers off another line will be able to give local trips the priority that the natue of Queen's streetlife demands.

Like I've said earlier in this thread, I'm not opposed to a Queen alignment for the DRL. I just believe that, if forced to chose one corridor for subway and one for streetcar, King is more suited for the former and Queen more suited for the latter (amongst other concerns I've touched on above).

We should strive for an inner city that has a subway oriented local transit system. The DRL should run along Queen as it would put the majority of the downtown area within a 10 minute walk of a subway station. The TTC should also operate a subway shuttle between Union Station and The Ex. Long term, I'd like there to be a subway along College and Spadina, with streetcars only operating on Bathurst, Queen's Quay, Dundas, King, and St. Clair.

We should strive for an inner city where each transit corridor is maximized to its full potential, which means that we acknowledge that different corridors are better suited for different kinds of trips and different modes of transportation.

 

[BurlOak]

I say a Queen alignment with a dipped down station at Bay & Wellington which would also host the Lakeshore GO Train lines and a convenient walk with moving ramps to get to Union.

The problem with "dipping down" is the radius of curvature that is needed to complete the "S" turn. With a station at Bay/Wellington, The nearest downtown DRL stations on Queen would be at Sherbourne to the East and Peter to the West to allow the line to "dip down" - and this also assumes you are deep enough to go under any building foundations in your way. Dipping down may be feasible at the edges of downtown, but it does not appear feasible to have this dip in the heart of downtown where stations should be closest together. if the DRL is connected to GO at the edges of downtown (i.e. Exhibition and Donlands) then one is not needed downtown.

Looking at a map of the downtown core, it may be better to have an underground through GO line "dipping" up to Wellington at Spadina and coming back down at Donlands (i.e. the Georgetown/Richmond Hill) - this is similar to the Metrolinx option but it appears more logical to not use the Lakeshore line, which is the farthest south. This area is relatively buildling (skyscraper) free.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The problem with "dipping down" is the radius of curvature that is needed to complete the "S" turn. With a station at Bay/Wellington, The nearest downtown DRL stations on Queen would be at Sherbourne to the East and Peter to the West to allow the line to "dip down" - and this also assumes you are deep enough to go under any building foundations in your way. Dipping down may be feasible at the edges of downtown, but it does not appear feasible to have this dip in the heart of downtown where stations should be closest together. if the DRL is connected to GO at the edges of downtown (i.e. Exhibition and Donlands) then one is not needed downtown.

Looking at a map of the downtown core, it may be better to have an underground through GO line "dipping" up to Wellington at Spadina and coming back down at Donlands (i.e. the Georgetown/Richmond Hill) - this is similar to the Metrolinx option but it appears more logical to not use the Lakeshore line, which is the farthest south. This area is relatively buildling (skyscraper) free.

Burl/oak?

I'm from oakville!