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kEiThZ said:
As for Dubai's development. What of it? Try building a metropolis from absolute scratch in 30 years with virtually no indigenous urban planning and architectural talent (when they started at least) to draw upon. It's rather unfair to compare them to cities in Europe or in Asia that are hundreds of years old and had pre-existing development patterns. For a fair comparison ask yourself what any of these cities would have done to accommodate the massive growth that cities in the UAE have had to undertake if they weren't restricted by their pre-existing settlement patterns. I don't think Dubai's track record is all that bad from this perspective. And of course, they are still developing with newer developments focused much more on improving the urban landscape.
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Well, I wouldn't give Dubai extremely high marks in the built form department. They seem to rely on modernist planning principles that have been discredited for over 30 years. And if they did resort to standalone tower modernism, why did it have to be built around the private automobile? Singapore, which went through similar growing pains as Dubai does now during the period 1961-1991 admittedly also built tower blocks ad nauseam, but they were concentrated around a rapid transit system that now boasts one of the most impressive levels of per capita ridership to be found anywhere in the world.
 
That's great wonderboy. I can only wish that my experience in Korea could have been so positive and not laced with discrimination and Sinophobia, but that doesn't matter. A country's human rights is, after all, measured by how well European men are treated there. Of course, if you're a white english teacher, there's a good chance that you got your job because of discrimination towards someone like me, but hey, who cares about that.

I seem to have struck a chord with my so-called "stereotyping" of wonderboy as the traditional young western expat but I got that impression after reading your initial moving post, not before. That's not stereotyping, just observation. I didn't say I was judging.
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Hey Jenny, I won't deny that having the appearance of a native speaker helped get me my job... however I do know many non-white English teachers here including some Korean and Chinese Canadians. It's really up to the school's, not the government to do the hiring (the government just makes sure I don't have STD's or have been doing drugs lol - something I don't disagree with personally). Also in Korean I'm 30 - hardly a "young male" anymore by Korean standards, I should have a family and kids by now as many have pointed out. I don't understand this constant theme of white privilege that seems to echo in all of your posts... You seem to attack something (ie. Korea, Toronto) then dismiss my (and others) views on account of me being a white male. I remember a certain poli sci professor at York who asked a student to leave a debate we were having for playing that card (neither the student or the professor were white) - it's a horrible tactic to bring another person's race or gender into any sort of debate while trying to validate your own viewpoint.

Stick to the theme of this forum....
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You obviously haven't been reading any of my posts as I usually try to steer it back towards the topic of the OP. I guess if someone criticizes South Korea in an unfair comparison to Dubai and throws in some personal attacks against my character it's not appropriate to respond? What kind of forum dictatorship is that?

As for your remarks about Dubai, I would simply say there' seems to be no "there" ... well there. Is building a collection of towers in a sandbox in the middle of a desert before anything else that makes a city function like an actual city good planning? I think the picture I posted speaks for itself, the city looks more and more like a large cul-de-sac of towers lacking in a proper usable street grid (important if you're ever going to have pedestrian activity), mid and low rise infill, public transit (you'd think Dubai would be boasting about having the world's greatest subway system.. but I guess since it would be buried it's far from a priority) etc etc.

The more I see of Dubai the more I'm convinced some rich sheik just decided to let his 12 year old son play around on Sim City.
 
wonderboy416 said:
The more I see of Dubai the more I'm convinced some rich sheik just decided to let his 12 year old son play around on Sim City.
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That's a rather ignorant and borderline offensive comment.

Hipster Duck said:
Well, I wouldn't give Dubai extremely high marks in the built form department. They seem to rely on modernist planning principles that have been discredited for over 30 years. And if they did resort to standalone tower modernism, why did it have to be built around the private automobile? Singapore, which went through similar growing pains as Dubai does now during the period 1961-1991 admittedly also built tower blocks ad nauseam, but they were concentrated around a rapid transit system that now boasts one of the most impressive levels of per capita ridership to be found anywhere in the world.
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Given that they've relied on western planners to provide advice for how to plan and grow the city perhaps the fault is partially that of the west. The comparison to Singapore is interesting because it's one that's often made in Dubai itself. They admire Singapore's economy and it's wise use of its strategic location, etc. Of course, the UAE sees itself on the same path. Developmentally, of course, Dubai never had the constraints that Singapore had. Dubai's got tons of sand it can sprawl over. Of note, Abu Dhabi is going a completely different direction in its development.

Anyway, why are we only talking about Dubai and not the UAE at large? It's kinda like forming an impression of Canada by visiting Toronto alone. Or more specifically it's like taking the opinion of a non-western tourist unfamiliar with our culture, who was stuck on the subway at Yonge/Bloor during rush hour and forced to use the grimiest bathroom in the worst mall in Toronto. I am sure that would be the best promotion of our city to that tourist's home country.

For all. Please do read the counter-points by the writer below (I find it fair and balanced) and let's discuss those. Of note, further down the page, Tia O'Neill the original writer makes some interesting comments on her own original statements.

http://ixpats.com/dubai-expats/2008...to-move-to-dubai-deconstructing-the-why-nots/

And if nobody wants to discuss things in context, then I'm out. I am not going to a nitpick a place to death. I would not want that done to my beloved Toronto so I am not going to do that to another place.

To me the original writer's comments like its really hot or that there's little vegetation are just ridiculous. I would not want someone bitching about how cold Toronto is and that there's no leaves on the trees during winter. So I am not going to engage in that kind of a debate....one without some context at least.
 
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While that's disgusting and they would be wise to clean it up, we shouldn't forget that until very recently (less than 10 years) there were Canadian cities which did the same....and that wasn't an illegal act by truckers but normal procedure by municipalities. Halifax is one example that comes to mind. That being said, Dubai should clean this up for the sake of it's image.

Going back to my original assertion....how come nobody's talking about Abu Dhabi? Is greener development not appropriate for this forum?
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Regardless of how we think, Dubai will figure out in 30 years (or less) whether what they are doing right now is worth it.

AoD
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True enough. And that's why I point to Abu Dhabi as the counter-example. They are hiring Vancouver city planners for pete's sake. That city will emerge as something more in line with what folks in the forum consider to be proper urban form. Dubai, however, will still remain the centre of commerce for the Middle East. And for all the criticisms here, consider the alternative....another hole in the desert.
 
kEiThZ said:
Going back to my original assertion....how come nobody's talking about Abu Dhabi? Is greener development not appropriate for this forum?
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Probably because city discussions aren't nation-specific. There's a huge difference between cities within the same country in terms of planning strategies. In Canada, for example, there is a huge rift between Vancouver and, as you have mentioned, Halifax which sprawls mercilessly (despite virtually no growth in population) for miles at densities lower than American cities of the deep south and dumps its sewage straight into the ocean. In the US, the difference is even more profound; consider Portland which has an Office of Sustainability, versus Houston, where they think that zoning rules are for socialists.

Given that they've relied on western planners to provide advice for how to plan and grow the city perhaps the fault is partially that of the west.
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I would disagree that it's the fault of Western planners. This sort of Corbusian modernism has been dismissed by serious planners since well before Dubai began its building spree. When the emirati hunted around for the people to design their city, they probably put conditions down that were impossible to navigate. A French planner who was involved with the team "responsible" for Shanghai's Pudong district (another wasteland of flashy highrises separated by onramps) lamented about how the Chinese authorities basically tinkered with every part of their plan until it no longer resembled anything they would reasonably propose.
 
How does talking about Abu Dhabi get Dubai off the hook?
"No, Waterworld wasn't a bad movie, you just never gave it a chance, besides Field of Dreams is pretty good but still not great, so you shouldn't dump on Waterworld". Nice logic.
 
wonderboy416 said:
How does talking about Abu Dhabi get Dubai off the hook?
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I am not saying it gets Dubai off the hook. A lot of the complaints here revolve around the notion that they are in the middle of a desert and therefore should not develop. Yet 2 hrs down the road is a city that's doing it's best to grow in as green a manner as possible.
 
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