adma
Superstar
I guess, sort of like Australia--or Quebec and Upper Canada, for that matter...
|
|
|
- Thread starter MetroMan
- Start date
I guess, sort of like Australia--or Quebec and Upper Canada, for that matter...
cruzin4u
Senior Member
I don't believe this article has been posted, as it's pretty recent. If it has been posted, my apologies.
The dark side of Dubai
Dubai was meant to be a Middle-Eastern Shangri-La, a glittering monument to Arab enterprise and western capitalism. But as hard times arrive in the city state that rose from the desert sands, an uglier story is emerging. Johann Hari reports...
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html
The dark side of Dubai
Dubai was meant to be a Middle-Eastern Shangri-La, a glittering monument to Arab enterprise and western capitalism. But as hard times arrive in the city state that rose from the desert sands, an uglier story is emerging. Johann Hari reports...
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html
wonderboy416
Active Member
I read that a few days ago, might have followed link from UT somewhere, hmm. It seems as if the author's entire purpose of visiting Dubai was to attack it. It also seems as if he did a really good job getting into some exclusive places as if it was nothing, either he a) did a lot of research or b) is talking out of his butt. While the article is called the dark side of Dubai at some point I was still expecting to read something positive about the city, most attack pieces on Dubai at least offer some nice words for Dubai.
I'm afraid that most of what he wrote is probably right on the money. Imagine if our news outlets were only able to publish positive stories about Toronto? The residents of Dubai are surely in a bubble.
Archivist
Senior Member
Interesting article. It will be interesting to see what happens when the UAE passes peak oil production. There's really nothing else there to keep the country going.
urbanfan89
Active Member
^^ Oil production is already long past its peak. They just needed to build a Disneyland-on-the-Gulf to keep the party going for as long as possible.
casaguy
Senior Member
This is an amazing article. Thanks for posting it.
I've always viewed Dubai as a train wreck. I think now though I've decided it's probably one that I don't want to see in person.
adma
Superstar
Dubai as the architectural/urbanistic answer to Phil Spector's Wall Of Sound, if you get my drift
...and who knows what that might lead to.
...and who knows what that might lead to.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
Phil looks like that guy on the Franklin Expedition they found buried under the permafrost.
ganjavih
Senior Member
I was wondering when adma would find an opportunity to post that bizarre photo.
jenny_zhang
Active Member
I know they exist (well uh obviously Koreans aren't going to be racist against Korean Canadians.....), I used to live there, but that doesn't mean we're treated the same. And that's just Chinese. It's even worse if you're Filipino or African or something more immediately noticeable (and not white). By the way I'm sure you know that it's more than just "looking like a native speaker" ... To lead into your next comment:
..what irks me through this discussion is your constantly bringing up Korea as some great example of human rights compared to Dubai just because you personally don't get the brunt of the discrimination that goes on there (and ignoring it). I'm sure young white males who can coast through living there, ogle exotic women, get their cheques, fly home and gush about it will be fine, but if you don't happen to fall into that category the experience is not going to be so great in terms of discrimination (like how the foreigner woman is treated in Dubai). That's just a fact. The only reason I keep bringing up this "white privilege' is the fact that you keep using your experience as a white male in Korea as some kind of evaluation of human rights like that's all that matters.
As for Toronto, I'm just telling you my experience from inside my community that is a perspective that you probably can't really get from the outside. It's nice that you have a good experience in some shops but that doesn't suddenly change the whole community..nor does it represent the experience that everyone has.
Last edited:
toraerach
Active Member
Jenny, while I'm sympathetic with your argument to a degree, I find it hard to agree with some of the things you've said in this thread. And just as a disclaimer, I'm sorry if I'm misinterpretted what you've been saying, this is just based on what's stood out to me. Firstly, I can empathize with this whole idea of observing the culture from the outside and experiencing it from the inside, and how the two don't always match up. While I am white and I can't possibly understand how it feels to be a racial minority in Canada/Toronto, I do come from the somewhat rare situation wherein I was raised by a Lesbian mother and now I'm gay myself. I've been in the Queer community my entire life, so I can appreciate growing up in a minority culture and experiencing all the crap you get from the outside. It's great to say Canada is the most tolerant country for Queer people, just as it is great to say we're the most racially tolerant out there, that does not mean we are as inclusive as we could or should be. It still hurt me when I found out last week a friend of a friend had been denied housing in Toronto because she was a Lesbian.
It also hurt me, as a white male, to find out about the abuses many predominantly Filipina nannies experience when they come to Ontario. When I read about the atrocious conditions those women are put through by some of the less caring agencies I thought I was going to be sick. How could stuff like that happen here? Or, how could my friend's mother be denied work because of her Spanish accent? This stuff still happens, but by and large I think (and hope) there is less tolerance here for that type of behaviour than elsewhere, especially amongst the younger generations.
A few pages back there was discussion about convenience stores in small towns and how that relates to race. Though I've never lived in a small town (though I live in Peterborough right now, which many of you might take for a small town), I have spent a good deal of time in them. I can verify that in most small towns in Ontario (at least that I have been to), convenience stores are the most likely place to encounter immigrants. I don't see this as being particularly racist. The reason you won't find many immigrants in small towns isn't because they're racist, it's for the same reason you don't see many young people in them - small towns in Ontario, generally speaking, are dying. If the people born there are leaving for larger cities and the opportunities they provide, why would immigrants move there? Why would anyone move there except maybe to retire? I'm not trying to attack small towns, but their economic viability is a crisis that is all too often ignored in Ontario. As for the reason why convenience stores in these towns often have immigrants running them, I can't give you a good reason, though I'm sure one exists. I'm also not saying racism doesn't exist in small towns (the recent attacks on Asian anglers and the pathetic response to it comes to mind).
I find it interesting that in all of this talk about racism in Ontario, very very little has been said about the racism directed towards Aboriginal peoples here that really is the greatest detractor, in my mind, to any claim on being a shining beacon of racial tolerance.
As for how this all relates to Dubai, the best way I can put it is thusly: I've never been there, but everyone I know who has lived there (who would mostly be South Asian or Filipino) left as soon as they could to come here. One friend of mine commented that the UAE was never home, but Canada is. I've heard this sentiment from many people who lived as immigrants in other communities around the world before moving here (Riyadh, various places in Europe, and even some places in the US). I think that says a lot about us, and I think we should take it as a compliment while continuing to work against racism and all forms of discrimination for that matter. I, and many other Canadians white or not, want Canada to be as inclusive as possible - can the same be said of your average Emirati?
I have a feeling that Dubai will turn out to be a lot like St. Louis in certain ways. Of all the cities I can think of right now, it is the only one which had such hype that faltered so quickly. Once upon a time it was going to be "the next Chicago." Things didn't really work out that way and it never acheived that importance. It's still there, and it's still growing, but it never fulfilled the promise it had before the Depression hit. I'm sure this recession will check the egos of many cities, Dubai included, but it will continue to grow and change. Hopefully it will learn, change, and grow in a more sustainable way, in terms of the environment, human rights, and the economy.
Just as an aside, I wonder if Europeans had any of these "oh how the mighty have fallen" moments as North American cities decayed after the Second World War (though I'd imagine they'd have bigger things on their mind, and I guess there was no Internet back then to encourage such discussion
)kEiThZ
Superstar
^ The whole 'Dubai is not a home thing' has a lot to do with their residency policies not the treatment of migrant workers. These articles brush over a lot of nuances. I am one of those Indians who moved to Canada from Dubai. Had my parents had a choice they would have gladly stayed in Dubai over Canada any day. The only reason they had to move is that the UAE (and the rest of the Gulf States) do not hand out permanent residency, nor do they ever naturalize residents. They make it so that it is not home.
The majority of Asian migrants that Canada gets from the UAE are people who were middle class who had a better lifestyle there then they do in Canada. They simply could not stay there for ever. So they had to find another place to move to...and for most Asian middle class professionals in the Gulf that does not mean back to their home countries. Having tasted the good life, they generally decide that they would be more comfortable living in the West. Hence, they migrate.
Be careful when you consider their migration as evidence of the quality of life they had there. My parents have spent over a decade and a half in Canada and their quality of life is still no where as close to what it was in Dubai. But they made their choice for the good of their children (better educational opportunities, chance to make a home and be a citizen, etc.).
Of course, none of this detracts from the treatment that migrant labourers get there...but that's not the whole picture of all or even the majority of residents in the UAE or the rest of the Gulf.
The majority of Asian migrants that Canada gets from the UAE are people who were middle class who had a better lifestyle there then they do in Canada. They simply could not stay there for ever. So they had to find another place to move to...and for most Asian middle class professionals in the Gulf that does not mean back to their home countries. Having tasted the good life, they generally decide that they would be more comfortable living in the West. Hence, they migrate.
Be careful when you consider their migration as evidence of the quality of life they had there. My parents have spent over a decade and a half in Canada and their quality of life is still no where as close to what it was in Dubai. But they made their choice for the good of their children (better educational opportunities, chance to make a home and be a citizen, etc.).
Of course, none of this detracts from the treatment that migrant labourers get there...but that's not the whole picture of all or even the majority of residents in the UAE or the rest of the Gulf.
toraerach
Active Member
I was just going off of my own personal experience with people who've moved here from Dubai, and I'm sure it's by no means universal. But if a place doesn't feel like/can't be home, does it really matter if it's because of poor working conditions or because of citizenship law? If it's not home, it's not home. Of course everyone has different criteria for home, and working conditions and residency/citizenship are not the only factors in it. I know a family, for example, that moved from Venezuela to Pennsylvania in the early 90s. Both the man and his wife in the family had good jobs at Penn State, and the entire family had citizenship, but because they were Latinos, they were always grouped in with the Puerto Rican community in their town. They ended up not really connecting with either the English or Hispanic communities and never felt at home, then they moved here. Now, apparently, they feel more at home. Home in general is such a complex concept it would be hard to reduce to working conditions and residency status alone. Sometimes it's just a matter of not being near family and friends or not connecting with the wider community in your new surroundings. There are many other issues too.
There are many people who do come to Canada/Ontario/Toronto who don't feel at home for various reasons, so perhaps I shouldn't have let us off so easily in my previous post.
Back to Dubai, never having been there I'm hesitant to make a set-in-stone judgment about the standard of life for people living there. I, and many others in this thread, can only base our thoughts off of secondhand and (by nature) biased reports. There are things that don't sit too well with me about Dubai - urban design, worker's/human rights, and environmental sustainability being the major three issues there for me - but a lot of the criticism of Dubai I have seen can be related back to cultural misunderstandings more than anything. For example, if you plan on living in another country or travelling around the world, you cannot expect alcohol to be freely available everywhere, or the latest Hollywood hits for that matter.
Compared to some other expat-populated cities, I can see the allure of Dubai and the UAE in general. For example, compared to Saudi Arabia, the UAE looks to me to be much more tolerant of religious diversity. From what I've gathered, churches/other houses of worship are allowed to operate in the UAE and there is no religious police force (correct me if I'm wrong). I know a few people who've lived in Riyadh in expat communities (of African and Filipino backgrounds in this case) and in general I get the sense from them that even living there wasn't as bad as we might expect.
I think the danger here though is that in comparing Dubai to the rest of the "Arab world" (however much I dislike that term, I can't think of a better one right now) is that we will end up letting Dubai off the hook for its problems, or dismiss them more readily as "not as bad." The same thing can be said about comparing Toronto to Dubai. We might end up dismissing Toronto's problems as being "not as bad" and therfore not as worthy of discussion or a push for change.
I do think that envy does play a role in a lot of the hasty judgments made against Dubai. Perhaps I'm not envious of what Dubai is (it's built form, it's social problems, etc.), but I would certainly love to see the amount of attention and investment Dubai has seen here. Not to mention the fact that they get stuff done quickly, which obviously has it's trade offs, but Toronto can move very slowly at times. Seeing a city that does something so differently from us decline is good for our self-esteem I guess. It reassures us that we do things a certain way for a certain reason. The same thing is happening with regards to Canada's banking system and how proudly people stand by it now that other systems around the world are failing. Like with the banking system though, we must remember we are far from perfect when comparing ourselves to places like Dubai. Or for that matter, remembering that Paris, New York, et al. have their own problems when our inferiority complex comes kicking in again.
Last edited:
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
Excellent post.
kEiThZ
Superstar
lesouris. Excellent post.
I can get that there's a certain schadenfreude in watching Dubai stumble right now (probably no where more so than in neighbouring Abu Dhabi). But I would caution the world now to be too gleeful. The last time a place like Dubai went bust we ended up with Lebanon. For all it's flaws (and there are many) Dubai has lead the UAE and the rest of the other Gulf states towards a moderate, pro-west (or at least compatible with the west) model and outlook.
It's a place of staggering contrasts and one that mirrors the disparities in other parts of the world, particularly South Asia. Sure labourers aren't treated all that well. But does anyone think that life is particularly peachy for a construction worker living in the slums of Mumbai? I get the sense too sometimes that there's a certain 'white guilt' in the western media about watching western expats rely on dark skinned labour in Dubai. But anyone who lives there will tell you that some of the worst abusers are wealthy and middle class south and east asians who live there. They treat their domestics exactly like they were back home. I also find a certain confusion in said guilt. Do people feel guilty because they see this treatment first hand? They don't seem to have problems buying textiles and leather made in sweatshops in south asia and the orient. They have no problem buying ipods made by factories with environmental records that make the Dubai sewage problem look benign. Where was the press when Taiwan's semiconductor industry was creating an environmental catastrophe at home just to put chipmakers in North America out of business? It just strikes me that a lot of the complaints, although valid, lack perspective and are extremely simplistic.
The worst in my mind, are those who seem to be cheering for Dubai to fail. We in the west should be worried about that prospect. If the most moderate entity on the Arabian peninsula were to go under, what's the prospects for improved relations with the Middle East for the west? Dubai has encouraged its citizens (however lazy) to study science, engineering, medicine, media, etc. instead of churning out Islamic Studies graduates like neighbouring Saudi Arabia. We can laugh at the stream of the 'world's biggest' or 'world's tallest' whatever coming from Dubai. But isn't that a heck of a lot better than other Gulf states funding Wahhabi mosques in our back yards? We should be careful what we wish for. Our guilt and envy might give us exactly the type of dystopia we think we want in the Middle East.
I can get that there's a certain schadenfreude in watching Dubai stumble right now (probably no where more so than in neighbouring Abu Dhabi). But I would caution the world now to be too gleeful. The last time a place like Dubai went bust we ended up with Lebanon. For all it's flaws (and there are many) Dubai has lead the UAE and the rest of the other Gulf states towards a moderate, pro-west (or at least compatible with the west) model and outlook.
It's a place of staggering contrasts and one that mirrors the disparities in other parts of the world, particularly South Asia. Sure labourers aren't treated all that well. But does anyone think that life is particularly peachy for a construction worker living in the slums of Mumbai? I get the sense too sometimes that there's a certain 'white guilt' in the western media about watching western expats rely on dark skinned labour in Dubai. But anyone who lives there will tell you that some of the worst abusers are wealthy and middle class south and east asians who live there. They treat their domestics exactly like they were back home. I also find a certain confusion in said guilt. Do people feel guilty because they see this treatment first hand? They don't seem to have problems buying textiles and leather made in sweatshops in south asia and the orient. They have no problem buying ipods made by factories with environmental records that make the Dubai sewage problem look benign. Where was the press when Taiwan's semiconductor industry was creating an environmental catastrophe at home just to put chipmakers in North America out of business? It just strikes me that a lot of the complaints, although valid, lack perspective and are extremely simplistic.
The worst in my mind, are those who seem to be cheering for Dubai to fail. We in the west should be worried about that prospect. If the most moderate entity on the Arabian peninsula were to go under, what's the prospects for improved relations with the Middle East for the west? Dubai has encouraged its citizens (however lazy) to study science, engineering, medicine, media, etc. instead of churning out Islamic Studies graduates like neighbouring Saudi Arabia. We can laugh at the stream of the 'world's biggest' or 'world's tallest' whatever coming from Dubai. But isn't that a heck of a lot better than other Gulf states funding Wahhabi mosques in our back yards? We should be careful what we wish for. Our guilt and envy might give us exactly the type of dystopia we think we want in the Middle East.