Greenspace
Senior Member
Feds are not totally back yet, others in variety of schemes that are less than 3 full days.
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- Thread starter Daveography
- Start date
God
Active Member
From my kowledge there were closer to 110k jobs downtown pre covid. I remember someone sending something to the forum at one point saying 70% are back. Also all of the students are back as well. Idk from an investment and development perspective the rn is usually irrelevant when factoring in an end result of a product that would finish 600-1000 days from today. That’s 14,400-24000 hours for shit to change. I feel like this is just one of those supply-demand issues where the person has the opportunity to create their own demand for the supply. Adding residents attached to the mall could create a healthy ecosystem (Pun intended). Westmount mall is an example. It’s small yes, but it’s supported by the near retirement homes and residential. It’s in a healthier state than city centre at the very least. Having a retirement home with two residential towers would support you enough. That’s without saying ofc that by the end of such a build out all office workers would be back downtown as well. Then again it’s not my pockets on the line.
BASE
Active Member
Certainly no quick changes coming. working population will now be a bit of a gradual increase as will living population. Students & events are back so I don't see what else can happen. The only delay should be planning for what comes next for the asset because status quo clearly won't cut it.
David A
Senior Member
Yes, the status quo does not make sense. You either make the decision to aggressively lease and try fill the existing retail space or you do something else with it.
Lets see: condo's - not much demand now, office space - heck no, hotel - maybe, rental - maybe, entertainment - maybe.
So nothing attractive really jumps out right now and dithering sure isn't going to improve things.
David A
Senior Member
Where would a seniors tower or two go? Probably not in City Centre East that still has two fairly good office towers and more of the remaining retail.
So the redevelopment opportunity would probably be on the west side. Most likely the old Bay space and that awful parkade that is past its best before date.
IanO
Superstar
~60k people Downtown on any given day pre-covid and some counts believe that might include students, but for arguments sake let's use 60k pure workers.
Even if 2/3 are back, that's 40k and I'd bet it is more like 20-30k with many not there for 8hrs, far fewer lunching, shopping (cause it's no longer an option) and exploring (due to safety). A friend who works at the UofA at ESQ told me that many coworkers arrive, work and leave due to concerns about walking around the core, day or night.
Munanyo
Active Member
It raises the question then what are their plans with City Centre? Clearly leaving it is as is won't be a viable solution as the retail is mostly empty and I don't think they want it in it's current sorry state for much longer.
I've mentioned it before and I'll reiterate it again - City Centre needs a complete overhaul and should be redeveloped into something different than just another retail mall/destination. There's too much competition close by and around the city. This should have plans for a couple of mixed use hotel/residential towers and have the ground floors host bars/restaurants/go-to nightlife destinations that will have people wanting to be there past business hours.
Yes it would cost a lot and with the current state of downtown I don't blame them for not wanting to pursue this right now. But this mall is a liability on the owners and a blight for our city. It has the potential, but I wish the owners would take a risk and gamble because the payoffs could be huge if done right.
I've mentioned it before and I'll reiterate it again - City Centre needs a complete overhaul and should be redeveloped into something different than just another retail mall/destination. There's too much competition close by and around the city. This should have plans for a couple of mixed use hotel/residential towers and have the ground floors host bars/restaurants/go-to nightlife destinations that will have people wanting to be there past business hours.
Yes it would cost a lot and with the current state of downtown I don't blame them for not wanting to pursue this right now. But this mall is a liability on the owners and a blight for our city. It has the potential, but I wish the owners would take a risk and gamble because the payoffs could be huge if done right.
ChazYEG
Senior Member
I'm sorry, but I am SO DAMN TIRED of this kind of complaint. I do agree that we oughta strive for the best, always, but for crying out loud. People here are such a bunch of snowflakes
The way people talk, every time I go out, I would expect to see something like you'd expect in a third world country. People being mugged, robbed at gunpoint, terrible acts of violence, police cars racing around chasing criminals... For crying out loud, these people need some real life check.
Garneau2Go
Active Member
I'm not saying there's no safety issues, but I agree, they're nowhere near as bad as the perception is. Go on r/edmonton and you'd think you live in 1970s New York City. I was recently walking by myself around downtown Los Angeles and that was an eye-opener for how bad it really gets.
Perception is really hard to counter unfortunately. City Centre Mall has the issue where they're one of the few public buildings that homeless people loiter in during the day, and it's so barren it's really noticeable. Security is very visible now and I've never been in actual danger shopping, but when someone is walking towards you muttering to themselves and nobody is around, you do get your back up a bit. I'm sure there's a decent amount of that at West Edmonton Mall but there is so many people they're drowned out.
Perception is really hard to counter unfortunately. City Centre Mall has the issue where they're one of the few public buildings that homeless people loiter in during the day, and it's so barren it's really noticeable. Security is very visible now and I've never been in actual danger shopping, but when someone is walking towards you muttering to themselves and nobody is around, you do get your back up a bit. I'm sure there's a decent amount of that at West Edmonton Mall but there is so many people they're drowned out.
God
Active Member
There are parts of downtown Vancouver that the worst parts of Edmonton don’t compare to.
IanO
Superstar
Sure, but we are talking about the CBD of the capital city in a very wealthy province.
It's disgraceful on so many levels, embarrassing for a variety of reasons and truthfully driving many away... permanently.
It's disgraceful on so many levels, embarrassing for a variety of reasons and truthfully driving many away... permanently.
Tropical
Active Member
The good (well... actually bad) news for you is that you're all correct. Neither of these arguments are mutually exclusive.
1) Downtown Edmonton is not particularly dangerous for many individuals. The risk is largely lateral violence and crime that would have very few real impacts for a condo resident, arena attendee or commuting office worker.
2) The perception of danger is authentic - since there are so many real negative impacts on vulnerable community members.
1) Downtown Edmonton is not particularly dangerous for many individuals. The risk is largely lateral violence and crime that would have very few real impacts for a condo resident, arena attendee or commuting office worker.
2) The perception of danger is authentic - since there are so many real negative impacts on vulnerable community members.
David A
Senior Member
I completely agree - Karen call 911, I saw a scary homeless person down the street! People really need to get a grip on themselves.I'm sorry, but I am SO DAMN TIRED of this kind of complaint. I do agree that we oughta strive for the best, always, but for crying out loud. People here are such a bunch of snowflakes
The way people talk, every time I go out, I would expect to see something like you'd expect in a third world country. People being mugged, robbed at gunpoint, terrible acts of violence, police cars racing around chasing criminals... For crying out loud, these people need some real life check.
There are murders in Mill Woods and everybody is not going on and on about it. There was one in the news a month or two ago close to Whyte Ave that now seems to be totally forgotten about, but if something dodgy happens downtown people talk about it endlessly like the world is coming to an end.
David A
Senior Member
The biggest problem for downtown right now is not safety, but there is not a lot there to come for right now - unless you really, really, really like empty store fronts. No Eddie Bauer, no Holts, no Birks, no Bay. All of these closed way before the recent uproar about safety.
IanO
Superstar
Chicken and the egg though. People won't come due to the perception and reality of the current state of things Downtown, retail won't invest or follow.
But I would say that safety is the NUMBER 1 issue by a large margin.
Listen to NAIOP, BOMA (who have millions/yr more being spent on security), EDBA, DRC, DECL etc. etc. etc.
Again and anecdotally, my GF won't walk around DT alone anymore, won't shop there due to very negative experiences in and around ECC and our condo building (as President) has had major issues with break-ins, vandalism, theft, disorder around the building, violence, gang activity/tagging and has directly led to multiple long-time residents moving outside of Downtown.
Feel free to ignore, dismiss, underplay or redirect the call for significant change, but it's far from safe in the core and this comes from residents, office workers, visitors, guest, business owners, non-profits, etc.
ECC won't attract tenants or reinvest until this changes, period.
But I would say that safety is the NUMBER 1 issue by a large margin.
Listen to NAIOP, BOMA (who have millions/yr more being spent on security), EDBA, DRC, DECL etc. etc. etc.
Again and anecdotally, my GF won't walk around DT alone anymore, won't shop there due to very negative experiences in and around ECC and our condo building (as President) has had major issues with break-ins, vandalism, theft, disorder around the building, violence, gang activity/tagging and has directly led to multiple long-time residents moving outside of Downtown.
Feel free to ignore, dismiss, underplay or redirect the call for significant change, but it's far from safe in the core and this comes from residents, office workers, visitors, guest, business owners, non-profits, etc.
ECC won't attract tenants or reinvest until this changes, period.