BASE
Active Member
I have to agree in that perception is really all that matters in this regard.
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- Thread starter Daveography
- Start date
Calfaer
New Member
Visibility and perception are certainly issues, but there is a very real danger behind that too and I don't know if it's fair to say there isn't. The absence of people going about everyday business downtown (working, shopping, dining, etc.) just makes the people going about less savoury types of business really stand out and more prone to act out, particularly if they feel they can get away with it. Fewer eyes on the street (and minimal police patrols) I think do result in more actual safety problems occurring.
I wouldn't say you're going to get mugged or attacked walking around downtown, as I think the type of problems that occur are more on the vandalism and property damage side, but it certainly doesn't make you feel good hanging around the area.
It's not the worst any city has ever seen in their core, but it's far from where it should be. I think actual safety concerns would go down if more people were attracted to coming downtown, but like Ian said, it does feel like a chicken and egg situation.
I wouldn't say you're going to get mugged or attacked walking around downtown, as I think the type of problems that occur are more on the vandalism and property damage side, but it certainly doesn't make you feel good hanging around the area.
It's not the worst any city has ever seen in their core, but it's far from where it should be. I think actual safety concerns would go down if more people were attracted to coming downtown, but like Ian said, it does feel like a chicken and egg situation.
David A
Senior Member
For those that are not paying attention to somewhat currently politically driven safety debate, it has seems to have become a big issue in Calgary now too, where oddly people apparently still go downtown.
Safety issues are a common problem in bigger cities now. However, such an empty downtown mall - that's really just an Edmonton thing.
Safety issues are a common problem in bigger cities now. However, such an empty downtown mall - that's really just an Edmonton thing.
David A
Senior Member
Perhaps in the owners minds the least risky thing is to do nothing and let it languish, but I think that is sort of the approach the previous owners took and that didn't go so well as the mall continued to decline. I would say this is low cost, but there is more risk than is apparent as the site deteriorates further and it also could lead to decline in the value of the nearby office space.
The next option and really the best in my opinion is to work hard and get some tenants to fill some of the empty spaces, including ones malls wouldn't normally consider such as a variety of smaller, local businesses and pop ups at initially very attractive/affordable rates. It could be a lot work, but it is not that high risk and definitely not high cost.
The third option is to redevelop the site which I believe is both high cost and high risk. Also the problem is there is no obvious lucrative opportunity and the east side with the existing and functional office towers does not lend itself well to redevelopment.
Everyone has their own threshold for when they feel uncomfortable/unsafe - while I think drug use is worse than it was previously, I don't feel more unsafe downtown than I did five years ago. My wife also says the same. Most of the people on my team echo the same sentiment that I have. However, I do know other teams/people that swing the other way and won't venture out of the office whatsoever and say as much in their team meetings. The question I always ask people is whether you are actually unsafe or simply feel unsafe and to take a step back and think about that.
Downtown safety isn't unique to Edmonton either. It is being fuelled in every major City across North America by the opioid epidemic, which is still trending upward.
I think the way that people talk about downtown with their peers, friends, and family influences how they feel about downtown, the same way that people think a certain way about politics or the pandemic. If no one talks about downtown in a positive light, everyone is going to continue to go down the rabbit hole of how unsafe and crappy a place it is to be.
There is no doubt that the mall is hurting due to less actual shoppers in general; however, the mall doesn't reflect all of downtown. The mall has also been far busier and active with the office crowd during the day the past couple of weeks. However, anecdotal increase in numbers doesn't reflect the actual data that says there are less people.
We tried to make reservations this weekend at almost every restaurant downtown a few weeks back and everything was booked, so people are still coming downtown on the weekend.
I think the narrative can change, but more people have to start promoting and talking about downtown positively.
MattPT
Active Member
As has been mentioned here before, Kingsway is 5 minutes away. Edmonton is a driving city. If you are going to drive to a mall the clear option is Kingsway. Add in a national (international?) destination shopping centre in the same city…and clearly there’s no hope for city centre as a traditional shopping centre. MAYBE if they become an outwardly facing shopping street it might offer a different experience that people could respond to? Way more issues with this mall than just safety.
Calfaer
New Member
^ I remember when I first moved to Edmonton, living downtown, I was so confused why all the street-front entrances to stores were blocked off and papered over. It made me wonder why they were there in the first place.
David A
Senior Member
I would agree with all of this. I think some of the very negative talk here and elsewhere in our community is self perpetuating and actually hurts the remaining downtown businesses most people would like to see survive and thrive. In particular, I think this negative mindset has probably taken root in our city more than in other places.
The very empty mall and retail store fronts do not present a very positive image of Edmonton or serve those who live downtown well who need and deserve goods and services they can walk to. This very empty also contrasts with both the viable downtown shopping centres in Calgary and Ottawa, the two cities closest in size to Edmonton.
So, safety concerns exist, some valid and some overblown, but the bleak mall - that is totally an Edmonton thing. We need to own it, try fix it and stop using safety as the excuse for it.
David A
Senior Member
As has been mentioned here before, a lot of people who live downtown (I am guessing you like driving or don't live downtown) don't necessarily want to drive to get everything. The real appeal of downtown living is to be able to walk to a variety of nearby places for many goods and services.
So, its not that everyone wants to drive to Kingsway. Right now we are not being given the choice.
MattPT
Active Member
I don’t drive and I live equal distance from city centre and Kingsway. I’ve walked to Kingsway 10 times in the last year while I’ve been to city centre once. My personal experience doesn’t change the fact that Edmonton is a city built for drivers. That’s exactly why I gave one small idea that could make city centre more desirable for pedestrian/people who live work in the area.
David A
Senior Member
Ok, living about equal distance between the two, this makes sense then. I agree more outward facing stores would be a good idea, that is a good point.
For instance, it would make sense for the Shoppers in City Centre West to have exterior access, particularly if that LRT line right in front of it ever gets up and running. Another recent problem for the mall is the lengthy construction and delay of this, but hey there is a long list of problems.
However, Kingsway has been around more or less in its current configuration for a long time. The decline of City Centre has been fairly recent, which leads me to believe while Kingsway may contribute to the problem, it is not a major cause.
For instance, it would make sense for the Shoppers in City Centre West to have exterior access, particularly if that LRT line right in front of it ever gets up and running. Another recent problem for the mall is the lengthy construction and delay of this, but hey there is a long list of problems.
However, Kingsway has been around more or less in its current configuration for a long time. The decline of City Centre has been fairly recent, which leads me to believe while Kingsway may contribute to the problem, it is not a major cause.
Gronk!
Senior Member
Oxford owns Kingsway and was the prior owner of ECC. Oxford had both malls in competition with each other until they sold the latter to LaSalle - in hindsight, not really a good move.
archited
Senior Member
Don Love's kids moved to Toronto and took the company (Oxford) with them after Don ceded control -- I think for them that Edmonton is just a distant memory and selling assets was more in their inheritance mode than trying to grow the company further (you know, exotic sports cars and the like).
EdmTrekker
Senior Member
100 more officers may make downtown safe but downtown itself will continue to be the centre for unfortunate people that need or have become accustomed to access to soup and meal kitchens, drug paraphernalia being handed out, cell phones from the City and access to hundreds and hundred of beds for transients etc. all within 3 blocks of the main square of Edmonton. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and my opinion has been informed by the 30 years that I have lived in the core.
Munanyo
Active Member
Just wanted to mention that it's nice to see some really healthy and legitimate discussion on one of the biggest issues facing the city. Everyone has made some really valid points and it just highlights how complex of an issue this is.
I've worked downtown for just over 4 years and I go for walks daily on my lunch break (unless there is an extreme cold snap). While I've had maybe 2 somewhat sketchy encounters on my walks, I've felt mostly safe. But there's no doubt a level of sketchiness and level of disorder Edmontonians are not used to seeing compared to years past. Today, I saw two homeless people break out into a fist fight in front of city hall, open drug use in front of CC and trash littered around most streets. Some days are better than others, but it's become almost a daily occurrence to see ambulances treating people who are overdosing on drugs. The streets are much busier these days then even 2 months ago and that has been one big positive change lately.
Ultimately there isn't much reason to come downtown. Yes there's some cool restaurants downtown people will go out of their way to hit up on weekends, Oilers game days, maybe some festivals in the summer, but our nightlife and entrainment districts are generally centred in Old Strathcona and 124 st. Ice District and 104 are chugging along but don't compare to the two aforementioned areas. We need corporations to set up shop downtown, incentivize owners to take a chance opening up businesses downtown and the city has got to to a better job cleaning up litter, street sweeping and general upkeep with vegetation and aesthetics more generally.
We're all on this site because we care about downtown. I try to remain hopeful for the future and believe that in a couple years things will be better. But we are in a tough state these days and all want to see downtown become a hip, trending place full of life at all hours and to have our disenfranchised start getting the help and resources they need to hopefully lead to more fulfilling lives.
I've worked downtown for just over 4 years and I go for walks daily on my lunch break (unless there is an extreme cold snap). While I've had maybe 2 somewhat sketchy encounters on my walks, I've felt mostly safe. But there's no doubt a level of sketchiness and level of disorder Edmontonians are not used to seeing compared to years past. Today, I saw two homeless people break out into a fist fight in front of city hall, open drug use in front of CC and trash littered around most streets. Some days are better than others, but it's become almost a daily occurrence to see ambulances treating people who are overdosing on drugs. The streets are much busier these days then even 2 months ago and that has been one big positive change lately.
Ultimately there isn't much reason to come downtown. Yes there's some cool restaurants downtown people will go out of their way to hit up on weekends, Oilers game days, maybe some festivals in the summer, but our nightlife and entrainment districts are generally centred in Old Strathcona and 124 st. Ice District and 104 are chugging along but don't compare to the two aforementioned areas. We need corporations to set up shop downtown, incentivize owners to take a chance opening up businesses downtown and the city has got to to a better job cleaning up litter, street sweeping and general upkeep with vegetation and aesthetics more generally.
We're all on this site because we care about downtown. I try to remain hopeful for the future and believe that in a couple years things will be better. But we are in a tough state these days and all want to see downtown become a hip, trending place full of life at all hours and to have our disenfranchised start getting the help and resources they need to hopefully lead to more fulfilling lives.