[golodhendil]

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible if you throw enough money at it. It could even be staged to minimize disruptions to regular service.

They kept Sheppard station open instead of shutting it down while constructing a new station on top of the old one at great cost.

Now the TTC thinks they can do the same and make a major expansion to Bloor-Yonge without shutting it down, with the only catch being that it would cost a billion dollars to do it.

I'm sure you could do the same to Eglinton if you had a big enough budget.

Of course it's "possible", but my concern is that it will be unlikely to happen, given the history of premetros in Europe and America compounded by the trackrecord of TTC.

Build it as an intermediate-capacity "heavy" light rail and it could be as good as any heavy rail subway, and full conversion in the future will be much easier. But build it as a classical light rail, and we'll probably be stuck with it for a century at least.

 

[ShonTron]

No it's because the subway cars are not weatherproof. The water would damage the electric equipment on those cars...

The Airport Transit System in Chicago uses rubber tires... would you say that it doesn't snow in Chicago?

The Morgantown PRT in West Virginia (similar system) gets snow, their solution was to heat the guideway. That could be how the small ORD system works as well.

 

[Brandon716]

The idea that an underground Eglinton LRT would be converted to a subway in the future is absolute stupidity. How could they possibly close down a line that has reached LRT capacity for YEARS to do such a conversion? How would they handle the ridership during the line's closure (which is so high buses can't handle it)? It has never been done in the history of our transit system, and never will! We're not talking about a six-month closure you know -- the line would be down for about 3 years. I can't believe people here have fallen for this trick. It's either LRT-forever or subway-forever.

You are correct if we're talking about LRT underground subway to rapid transit TTC-style subway.

However, if all we're talking about is digging a future tunnel or elevated track to separate the LRT cars entirely from the street, it can be done in the future.

I think those of us who wanted subway don't have to feel this is a bad "defeat" of sorts. For the futuer, I don't think people should back down from the DRL or finishing Sheppard appropriately as a subway.

As far as future capacity, Eglinton isn't a downtown line, its a crosstown line. Its possible LRT can handle the capacity perfectly fine, up to about 300k riders a day, without upgrading or crowding being a concern.

Portland, as example again, only run single car trains during off-peak hours. Portland services a lot of people doing this at 120k. If Toronto simply runs multi-car trains all day and night, it won't be an issue at all really.

An unanswered question is how large the platforms will be. They need to at least attempt building LRT platforms that can handle either 3-4 cars per train. If they do this, the LRT can go up to 400-500k per day no problem.

Eglinton won't need more capacity if they build the LRT right.

 

[waterloowarrior]

DR. GRIDLOCK
Double the cost should buy us some explanations
JEFF GRAY
April 13, 2009
What's $2-billion between friends?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20090413.GRIDLOCK13ART2255/TPStory/Comment

It seems no one at the TTC or Metrolinx - the province's regional transportation planning body - will explain why the cost of Toronto's proposed Eglinton light-rail line has more than doubled.

The 32.5-kilometre line, with a 10-kilometre tunnel from around Leslie Street in the east to Keele in the west, was originally estimated at $2.2-billion when the TTC unveiled it in 2007.

On April Fool's Day, with a smiling Mayor David Miller clapping vigorously as Premier Dalton McGuinty pledged $9-billion for Toronto-area public transit, the centrepiece Eglinton line's cost had jumped to $4.6-billion. Delirious with the job-creating, pollution-killing transit investment, no one seemed to notice.

Admittedly, cost estimates for transit projects are notoriously slippery. Inflation and the cost of a carhouse to store the new light-rail vehicles are partly to blame for the rising bill. (The overall estimate for the mayor's 122-kilometre Transit City light-rail plan has risen from $6-billion to $10-billion.) But the steep rise for the Eglinton price tag - and the mysterious vagueness that questions about it have prompted - suggests the TTC remains locked in a dispute with Metrolinx over what the Eglinton line will look like.

Last summer, a behind-the-scenes battle erupted as Metrolinx, then drafting its $50-billion 25-year transportation plan, tried to scrap the TTC's partially tunnelled light-rail proposal in favour of using the latest version of the Scarborough RT vehicles.

TTC officials said the faster, higher-capacity line, was unnecessary, and warned it would cost two to three times as much. At the time, Metrolinx chairman Rob MacIsaac ridiculed the TTC's concept as too slow, saying anyone taking it to the airport "better pack a picnic lunch."

One TTC source said at the time the province would never go along with the more expensive Metrolinx plans: "They're not prepared for a collision. They're not prepared to have a whole plan go down in flames over a fight."

Since the Premier's announcement, no one at the TTC has been willing to spell out why the price tag has gone up, saying the province was relying on a Metrolinx estimate. Mr. Miller told reporters last week the original TTC estimates did not include vehicles, which contradicts what the TTC said at the time.

Senior Metrolinx official John Howe said he could not explain the math behind the $4.6-billion number, but said TTC and Metrolinx officials were still analyzing various scenarios for the line.

He said everything, including what vehicles would be used, whether the line would be tunnelled, run in a trench or at grade was still under discussion. (Scarborough RT cars, like subway cars, have an electrified third-rail, and cannot safely be run in the middle of a road without barriers.) The spacing of the stations - farther apart means a faster ride, but closer together means a better transit line for local users - is also undecided.

Clearly, Metrolinx - set up with a suburban bias to solve the Toronto region's transit woes - wants Eglinton to be a regional transit line that whisks you from Pearson Airport all the way to Scarborough and perhaps beyond. The TTC sees it instead as relief for Torontonians tired of waiting in traffic in packed buses along Eglinton.

A report from TTC and Metrolinx engineers due in a few months could tell us the winner - if the Premier, who is after all putting up the $4.6-billion, hasn't decided already.

jgray@globeandmail.com



Steve Munro post
http://stevemunro.ca/?p=2002

 

[TOareaFan]

The more I hear/read about this line....the less shovel-ready it appears!!!

 

[kEiThZ]

Like I pointed out earlier, the debate that's probably going on is over the function of the Eglinton corridor. The TTC will not see it as a regional crosstown route because the majority of passenger will be embarking or disembarking at points other than either terminus which means that they will not suffer significant delays from the line consisting of at-grade and grade separated LRT (vs. a HRT subway). And that vision is in keeping with how Miller and Giambrone see Transit City. The problem is that many transit enthusiasts and other authorities (Metrolinx) have a vision other than that of LRT replacing a bus that most riders take for a few stops. The regional vision is being embraced by everyone other than the TTC, Giambrone and Miller. There are going to be some very interesting battles ahead.

 

[RedRocket191]

There are going to be some very interesting battles ahead.

Unless the province passes the Metrolinx legislation and issues a transit policy statement... In that case there will be no battles at all

 

[LAz]

They should just build the subway from englinton west to the airport... and they should get on that ASAP. If vancouver can build a line to richmond and the airport, then surely toronto can.

 

[RedRocket191]

They should just build the subway from englinton west to the airport... and they should get on that ASAP. If vancouver can build a line to richmond and the airport, then surely toronto can.

No one is really denying that it can be done, but it would be difficult to start without blueprints and stuff...

 

[cacruden]

Like I pointed out earlier, the debate that's probably going on is over the function of the Eglinton corridor. The TTC will not see it as a regional crosstown route because the majority of passenger will be embarking or disembarking at points other than either terminus which means that they will not suffer significant delays from the line consisting of at-grade and grade separated LRT (vs. a HRT subway). And that vision is in keeping with how Miller and Giambrone see Transit City. The problem is that many transit enthusiasts and other authorities (Metrolinx) have a vision other than that of LRT replacing a bus that most riders take for a few stops. The regional vision is being embraced by everyone other than the TTC, Giambrone and Miller. There are going to be some very interesting battles ahead.

I look at it as a battle between short-term planning vs. long-term planning. For transit to be more viable for use other than coming into and going out of downtown from a few select points in Toronto, they have to focus on where they want to be long-term (30 years). I believe the best solution is to work towards a grid-style backbone which will be able to transport people fairly efficiency. This would require finishing Sheppard St. Line (north east-west), building a centre east-west line (Eglinton), and a more southerly line which becomes a wide North-South loop (a.k.a DRL). This along with integrating in GO as the express - which would require no level crossings, electrification, and moving to lighter vehicles (cheaper to operate) with integrated stations that cross the subway system. The buses then can be re-oriented to feed the new lines and there will be sufficient traffic on those lines. The problem is that if we take little steps here and there - we will still be the same distance away from a comprehensive system 30 years later.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Well put. That's why we'll need a Transit City 2 to build the subway lines and GO services Toronto needs. Integration will be an ongoing issue well beyond finishing up Presto.

 

[kEiThZ]

Anybody know more about the rumoured tunnel extension Steve Munro alludes to? How much would 3km add to average speed really (for the whole line)?

 

[GTS]

The Vancouver line to Richmond is using two-car trains to move people to that city's airport from downtown. I hope Toronto's own Eglinton line will use similar technology to move to move the projected amount of people on that route. For the underground portion I hope they use similar stop spacing to what the subway has on the Danforth. Stop spacing is close enough so that bus routes aren't needed along the Danforth and all the business still benefit from having rapid transit nearby. The stops are also far enough that the subway is still considered rapid transit as well.

 

[kEiThZ]

Toronto does not need more unreliable orphan technologies in its inventory. The Scarborough RT was a bad enough mistake. Any resident of Scarborough will attest to that. I can't believe there are folks on here who would want that mistake imposed on all of the city. LRT is the right choice for Toronto. If we can't have LRT, then let's jump to HRT. ICTS/ART is one of the worst mistakes the TTC ever made. Let's not perpetuate it.

 

[nfitz]

No it's because the subway cars are not weatherproof. The water would damage the electric equipment on those cars...

It may well be true that the cars aren't weatherproof - but that's because they were never designed to operate outdoors - there was no need to expend money to do that, given the use of tires on the Metro trains would always mean that they would be indoors!

Which came first, chicken or the egg. In this case, what came first was a rubber-tired Metro - which would then lead to other decisions - such as no need to have waterproof vehicles.