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The 30 year lifecycle costs and operation cost do fall under cost per kilometers. Ontario is being special by including these cost into the price tag. No one really knows the real operation cost 30 years down the road. Nor will they pay the entire $5B when the line opens. The price tags between projects aren't even comparable since the Finch West LRT doesn't include driver cost while the HuLRT does. Since that is a TTC problem and thus ignored.

That's like buying a car and saying that a Honda Civic cost $100k. Which includes the car itself, the 10 years of gas that you planned to use, the oil changes, maintenance cost and parts replacement needed beyond 5 years old.
Insurance and the real estate to store the vehicle overnight each night or during vacations?
 
Let's get the facts straight. According to the recent Audit, the construction cost of the Hurontario LRT is budgeted for $1.76B for 18km. Working out to be $97.8M/km. That was supposedly over budget.


Source: https://www.auditor.on.ca/en/content/annualreports/arreports/en20/20VFM_06metrolinxgov.pdf#page=42

A fun fact is ML actually over estimated the Finch West LRT and the project came in cheaper at $1.17B for 11km construction cost. That works out to be $106.3M/km.

For whatever reason the Hamilton LRT had a much higher estimated construction cost of $2.094B for 14km or $149.6M/km. Maybe it had something to do with being on different one way streets?? Of course the stated the $5.5B figure to kill the project.

So that roughly puts the construction cost at $100M/km not $250M/km. Subway cost is still over $300M/km.

Eglinton West "subway" has an early estimated cost of $3.473B construction cost for 9.2km or $377.5M/km without a MSF.
Source: http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regiona...benefitscases/2020-02-28_ECWE_IBC.PDF#page=14

The LRT cost is clearly overballed to mess around with the public. The subway is probably underestimated. The crosstown comes in around $400M/km (2015$). It was $5.3B construction cost for 19km in 2015. It does have more stations per km however and includes a massive MSF.
100m per kilometer is still *really* high compared to other countries.
 
100m per kilometer is still *really* high compared to other countries.
This is especially when you consider the fact that 100m per kilometer was the cost of the Canada Line, a line that has the exact same capacity as the eglinton line, yet is underground for half of its route, and is fully grade separated leading to way better service and rider experience than any of the LRTs we're building in Ontario. The costs of the LRTs here is embarrassingly high.
 
This is especially when you consider the fact that 100m per kilometer was the cost of the Canada Line, a line that has the exact same capacity as the eglinton line, yet is underground for half of its route, and is fully grade separated leading to way better service and rider experience than any of the LRTs we're building in Ontario. The costs of the LRTs here is embarrassingly high.
The Canada Line was built with cut and cover for the entire tunnel. That was deem unacceptable. So they resorted to deep tube tunneling with massive excavation stations. That drove up the price since they are digging 4 times as much dirt. Plus the MSF is triple the size.

GTA soil conditions also sucks.
 
The Canada Line was built with cut and cover for the entire tunnel. That was deem unacceptable. So they resorted to deep tube tunneling with massive excavation stations. That drove up the price since they are digging 4 times as much dirt. Plus the MSF is triple the size.

GTA soil conditions also sucks.
However, what if we did the same thing as the Canada Line and ran automated 40m long trains. We still have the same capacity, but now the stations are significantly cheaper since they're so much shorter, and riding on Eglinton East will be so much quicker and will involve less waiting for red lights. Not to mention fare gates to help stop people from evading fares. Same if not cheaper price for significantly better service.

Not to mention I'm speaking for Hurontario here which accounting for Inflation would probably cost the same to build a fully elevated line on Hurontario, making the service way faster and more convenient with better transfers *cough cough* Port Credt
 
However, what if we did the same thing as the Canada Line and ran automated 40m long trains. We still have the same capacity, but now the stations are significantly cheaper since they're so much shorter, and riding on Eglinton East will be so much quicker and will involve less waiting for red lights. Not to mention fare gates to help stop people from evading fares. Same if not cheaper price for significantly better service.

Not to mention I'm speaking for Hurontario here which accounting for Inflation would probably cost the same to build a fully elevated line on Hurontario, making the service way faster and more convenient with better transfers *cough cough* Port Credt
Yes if that was the point. Soil condition might cause the project to cost more here but it won't be doubled. The LRT does have a slightly higher capacity if Citadis Spirits are used.

The way how the Canada Line was built is widely unpopular leading to a major lawsuit. It killed many business just like covid-19 use doing. It'll have an effect on more opposition in future projects if this approach was taken.
 
Yes if that was the point. Soil condition might cause the project to cost more here but it won't be doubled. The LRT does have a slightly higher capacity if Citadis Spirits are used.

The way how the Canada Line was built is widely unpopular leading to a major lawsuit. It killed many business just like covid-19 use doing. It'll have an effect on more opposition in future projects if this approach was taken.
You keep bringing in factors that are frankly irrelevant. I want you to imagine though for a second if the Eglinton Line was a light metro like the Canada Line. We could still have bored tunnels, and all of the stations could be built the exact same way, but immediately we have a massive cost savor which is the shorter platforms. The platforms are typically the biggest cost driver in subway projects so by having shorter platforms, we are already saving a ton of money. The money saved on platforms can then be used in grade separating the eastern section of the line, most likely by elevating the line in the middle of Eglinton which given how wide the corridor is and how most development is just surface lots and wide plazas, there is plenty of room. At worst we are spending maybe a couple million dollars more per km, but the end product is significantly cheaper to maintain due to automation and not having to staff drivers on each train, and the actual service on the line is better tenfold. Now let's look at Hurontario. Cut and Cover tunneling is a non issue since, well, at no point do we even need to tunnel. The Hurontario LRT runs on the section of the street which is 6 to 8 lanes wide so having the entire line elevated from Port Credit to Steeles would be significantly cheaper per km than the Canada Line. The only factor then becomes whether or the line will be more expensive than Hurontario if we factor in inflation and the increase in construction cost we have seen over the last decade, but even then, if its more expensive than the LRT, it will only be more expensive by a fairly negligible amount, and the value we get per dollar would still be significantly more than we get with the LRT.
 
This is especially when you consider the fact that 100m per kilometer was the cost of the Canada Line...

~2004 pricing isn't particularly relevant without an inflation adjustment. Construction prices across the continent for everything (roadways, buildings, transit, sewer, etc.) have nearly tripled since then.

The original 7.4km of Yonge subway was built for $67M; that's not something which can be repeated today either.
 
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~2004 pricing isn't particularly relevant without an inflation adjustment. Construction prices across the continent for everything (roadways, buildings, transit, sewer, etc.) have nearly tripled since then.

The original 7.4km of Yonge subway was built for $67M; that's not something which can be repeated today either.
This is 2009 pricing, and that's the reason why I still compare Hurontario at the same price level as an elevated allignment. The Canada Line 100 million includes having half of the alignment underground with cut and cover. I am making an assumption that the money saved by having the entire line elevated would counteract any inflation that would've occurred in the last 10 years, and even if I'm wrong and inflation is more than that, a worst case scenerio would have the pricing slightly higher than the LRT. In terms of how much value you're getting per dollar, its still way higher with a light metro than an LRT.
 
This is 2009 pricing...

Only addressing this piece as the rest of your argument is reasonable but based on this point. I just want to be clear on what the comparison is as accounting processes have a huge impact on the price-tag due to the long duration of construction and high inflation rates. Construction Inflation rate for residential buildings in Toronto from Q4 2019 to Q4 2020 was over 9% [statscan] (Covid accounts for about 3% of that increase), cost of laying asphalt rose 60% from 2016 to 2019 [daily commercial news], etc.

So you're using the March 2009 government project cost (sum of all cashflows from 2002 through to end of 2009) divided by length?

3 things to be careful of:
  • Construction inflation rate was 6% to 8% at that time; partial payments along the way have a non-trivial impact, particularly those made for earlier works in 2006.
  • Add $450M in cost overruns that InTransitBC absorbed. The P3 nature of the contract limited costs for the government for that project, but this still impacts the bids on future projects. Worth noting, firms are not really bidding on large transit P3s in North America anymore due to high risk of bankruptcy. Ontario has been unable to side-step cost-overrun risks for tenders after Eglinton.
  • Be aware that some Canada Line construction methods were seen as having such large externalized costs (neighbourhood economic impact) that they've been made illegal.
Simply put, if we rolled back time but kept the knowledge gained by 2009 and put the Canada Line out to tender again (exact same corridor, etc.), the government cost would be at least $800M more for the same result.
 
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why is this?

About half the increase is driven to oil price; from around $40 in 2016 to $55 in 2019. I'm not sure about the other half. Perhaps a combination of gravel, carbon tax, and labour cost increases.
 
Also 3 years is a relatively short period. Unlike the consumer price index, there's a lot more variability. It's not unheard of to be up 20% one year, and down 20% the next year. Supply and demand is a big factor too.

Over the long-term, with 2% inflation, a 4% construction price index is probably about par for the course.
 
About half the increase is driven to oil price; from around $40 in 2016 to $55 in 2019. I'm not sure about the other half. Perhaps a combination of gravel, carbon tax, and labour cost increases.
I was told a couple years ago that about 90% of asphalt that's being laid is recycled from old roads. Has that changed and if it hasn't then why would the cost go up relative to oil price.
 
I was told a couple years ago that about 90% of asphalt that's being laid is recycled from old roads. Has that changed and if it hasn't then why would the cost go up relative to oil price.
Recycling replaces the aggregate, not the bitumen/oil.
 

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