adma
Superstar
Let's be fair here--it didn't just go for a parking garage, it went for a mall, which the garage just happened to by plopped atop of...
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- Thread starter LowPolygon
- Start date
thecharioteer
Senior Member
Well, as can be seen in the original incarnation of the Yonge frontage south of Shuter, it really was a parking garage with visible open parking on the upper levels on Yonge and blank walls on the upper floors of the interior (which is why the Eaton's Centre will never be the Gallleria Vittorio Emmanuel). Shallow unleasable residual retail resulted on Yonge. The Yonge Street facelift attempted to ameliorate the garage by adding Dawson City-like storefronts, brought out to the lot-line in an attempt to re-animate the street with deeper viable retail.
I have a hunch that if the Centre was being planned today, the parking would have gone underground and most of the significant buildings on Yonge could be preserved with their rear facades opening into the Galleria (perhaps conceptually similar to the Centre du Commerce Mondial on St. Antoine in Montreal). Even the original Eaton's store could have been preserved and carved into a la Terminal Warehouse:
Original design:
Current plan:
It would appear that the blocks north of Albert (including the Mason & Risch Building) would have fit in their entirety into the envelope of the present parkade:
Montreal's Centre du Commerce Mondial:
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LowPolygon
Senior Member
oh, man if only! i hate those "Dawson City-like storefronts" more with each passing year...
it would be amazing to have a total redo of the west side of Yonge street, one that would include a completely accurate reconstruction of what used to be there à la Dresden, Warsaw or Ypres, where the 13th century Cloth Hall and Cathedral was destroyed in 1915, and now looks like this:
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
I find Dresden's unusual decision to build exact replicas, compared to how most other bombed-out European cities reconstructed themselves after the war through contemporary design, kinda creepy. That said, of course, we've done some archi-cloning hereabouts too - there are a couple of repro facades on the east side of Church Street south of Front for instance. One reproduces the building in buff brick, and the central section does so in red brick. I agree about the ghastly faux fronts that replaced the perfectly honest original Eaton Centre parking levels though.
thecharioteer
Senior Member
Not sure what the "creep"-factor is in the case of Ypres and Dresden, US. I think this is really a philosophical discussion about authenticity and honesty. I would ask the question that if the Cloth Hall or the Frauenkirche had suffered a disastrous peacetime fire, instead of a wartime bombing, would you be against restoring the buildings (were you against restoring those portions of Windsor Castle following its fire)? Is it a question of how much is being rebuilt (30% rebuilding OK, 50% questionable, 80% a no-no)? Is it that the anti-war "message" of a bombed-out church so powerful, that it supercedes the urban and architectural delight of the restored or recreated building?
We know that the Japanese had a tradition of demolishing and rebuilding significant buildings. In the West, it seems that the penchant for historical recreation was particularly Victorian (I know, US, your least favourite period), with Viollet-le-Duc leading the charge with his recreation of Carcassone upon the ruins of the medieval city and numerous churches and cathedrals being "restored" back to what was considered their appropriate era.
What about the cases where the destruction of the original building was an act of political malfeasance (like in the case of the East German communisits demolishing the Royal Palace in Berlin) or simply a colossal mistake (like Penn Station)? Would it be inauthentic or dishonest to recreate these complexes because they don't express today's zeitgeist as the Modernist mantra goes? Would the recreation of the Berlin Palace be acceptable if only the facades and domes were being built (for urban design reasons in relation to how the Palace framed the Lustgarten, Dom and Altes Museum) but the interior was designed by Norman Foster (or should the entire massing be "modern"?
I admit to a certain ambivalence myself, however, if I could wave the proverbial magic wand and have the blocks bounded by Yonge, Church, Front and Wellington recreated (and let's throw in Toronto Street, the Odeon Carlton, the Temple Building and the Mechanics Institute), I'd do it, because the architectural, urbanistic and "historical" aspects would be so superior to what we have there now.
Front Street East (now Berczy Park):
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adma
Superstar
I look at it this way: they demolished on Yonge when it was still relatively easy to get away with it. It may seem regrettable in retrospect; but then, we're applying too much of today's values to 60s/70s decisions. Maybe a decade or so later, it would have been more plausible to apply a Centre du Commerce Mondial (or--hey--BCE Place; let's get local here) solution. But--it happened.
And re
But I'm in agreement w/thedeepend and US here. Not only are you paying short shrift to the original Yonge frontage as an integrated work of architecture rather than a mere "parking garage", but we're at the point where if we apply certain present-day values to lost 70s heritage (as opposed to heritage lost in the 70s, Mason & Risch et al), the 90s false-fronting of Yonge is just as regrettable--as is the destruction of the Yonge + Dundas glasshouse entrance on behalf of H&M, and the running removal-replacement of the "ship railings" within...
And re
But I'm in agreement w/thedeepend and US here. Not only are you paying short shrift to the original Yonge frontage as an integrated work of architecture rather than a mere "parking garage", but we're at the point where if we apply certain present-day values to lost 70s heritage (as opposed to heritage lost in the 70s, Mason & Risch et al), the 90s false-fronting of Yonge is just as regrettable--as is the destruction of the Yonge + Dundas glasshouse entrance on behalf of H&M, and the running removal-replacement of the "ship railings" within...
junctionist
Senior Member
Today, rebuilt heritage buildings, especially ornate landmarks whose construction is typically deemed unfeasible in North America are a norm around Europe, with plenty more projects planned. The Cathedral of Christ the Saviour is an interesting and beautiful example from Moscow that was rebuilt in 2000. Ultimately, there's nothing creepy about it. It just shows that "heritage architecture" is more than just an empty word for some old buildings to keep standing, it means that this architecture is a part of the national culture, and to destroy it is to undermine that culture.
The Nazis wanted to destroy all of Warsaw because Warsaw was a traditional Polish city, the vibrant centre of national culture, a culture they deemed inferior, along with other Slavic cultures. Hence, after WWII, it was very important to rebuild Warsaw to keep the cultural heritage alive. Warsaw is a beautiful city today, with so many rebuilt heritage palaces, ornate churches, and monuments as well as lot of interesting modern design.
adma
Superstar
Though especially these days, it can also be a quite "loaded" affair thanks to varying interpretations of "national culture", and the architectural expression thereof. A very vivid recent case in point being the proposed rebuilding of the Berlin Stadtschloss on the site of the E German Palace of the Republic, which led to some pretty vivid counter-campaigns on behalf of the latter. (Given the roughly common date w/the Eaton Centre, maybe it's a comparison point worth heeding.)
thecharioteer
Senior Member
The dilemma with the Yonge Parkade is that it was not an" integrated work of architecture". It didn't really integrate with the Eaton store further north, (and certainly not with the Galleria interior) nor with the existing buildings to the south or across the street. It seemed like a separate building, and certainly a second-rate suburban building at that. The facade was an attempt by Zeidler to "decorate the shed" (so to speak) by masking the garage with a repetitive series of metal frames that were intended to support third-party Yonge Street signage (a la Sam's and A&A's) that would animate the frontage. This signage never arrived (and in fact Dundas Square is the descendant of this concept). Exit stairs were designed to create some interest (like at McMaster), but were too weak a gesture to create any sense of rhythm. Having almost no retail at the base, a large amount of blank exit doors and a set-back (mandated by Metro Roads), the entire block became a black hole that sucked the life out of both sides of the street.
Like in so many cases in the city, the issue is not one of historic preservation vs. modern architecture, but of good vs. banal design. In the case of the Yonge Parkade, we did not get (to put it generously) Zeidler's best. As an aside, adma, I do agree with you about the loss of the Yonge/Dundas glass house element, one that was both playful and urbane. That "floating" Italian restaurant that once existed within the space was also quite lovely.
1980:
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Goldie
Senior Member
Front Street East (now Berczy Park):
Isn't this the north side of Wellington? - Across the street from Berczy Park?
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
I find anything that is, as Charioteer terms it, "inauthentic" to be creepy. When I was in the 1440 chapel at All Souls College in Oxford a couple of days ago, for instance, I was aware that the elaborately carved reredos behind the altar was mostly a replica of the original, reconstructed in the gothic style at a later date ( the original was wrecked by Puritans ). Hawksmoor's 1720s great quadrangle takes the adjacent gothic exteriors as a starting point to fit in with what went before, but with a classical measure - and the addition at the north side takes cues from said chapel to the south but the interior ( the Codrington Library ) is neo-classical, and the twin towers on the east side are gothic with a classical twist. The west side ( which appears to be a traditional cloister when seen from the street but is a sort of "half shell" affair when you're in the quadrangle ) is equally his own. Our Massey College might be a good local equivalent ( gothic seen through modernist eyes rather than replica ).
thecharioteer
Senior Member
No, one can see the spire from the Board of Trade Building at far left. The buildings in the middle had entrances on both Front and Wellington.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
Take a virtual tour of the Nashville Parthenon:
http://www.dkv.columbia.edu/vmc/acropolis/html/1_4/1.4_10.html
http://www.dkv.columbia.edu/vmc/acropolis/html/1_4/1.4_10.html
LowPolygon
Senior Member
thecharioteer
Senior Member
Eaton's:
