[Prometheus The Supremo]

When luxurious Toronto-themed condominiums begin to rise in Manhattan I might change my opinions about Toronto and its constant insecurity which (to circle back) is no different than Vaughan's "City Above Toronto" shenanigans.

but you're comparing apples to oranges. i wasn't talking about regular citizens or companies, i was talking about the vaughan government. your rebuttal to my original argument about the sign should be about the toronto government (any existing examples where toronto the city is bashing another city for self promotion).

 

[Hydrogen]

When luxurious Toronto-themed condominiums begin to rise in Manhattan I might change my opinions about Toronto and its constant insecurity which (to circle back) is no different than Vaughan's "City Above Toronto" shenanigans.

Why would you form your opinions about Toronto and the attitudes of the population on the basis of condominium marketing?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Sigh. I didn't mean to drag the whole topic off-thread. I wasn't "rebutting" your point. Anyway, in short:

1) The initial point was that by Vaughan calling itself "The City Above Toronto" it was lamely basing its own identity on a comparison to Toronto - and a poor one at that. The city was immature and incapable of standing on its own two feet, so to speak.

2) Someone then posted the oft-used Ustinov quote about Toronto being "New York as run by the Swiss" which, obviously is not the city's official motto but is certainly something that Torontonians know and repeat. In fact, if the city has an actual motto ("No guns here, just us chickens?") I don't know it. 30 years (or whatever) after being spoken, it's still something the city at large clings to for idendity.
The fact that the Ustinov quote is not government policy is kinda besides the point. After all, Vaughan's motto was dreamed up by city staff and who knows what consultants over 20 years ago. The overall question remains how a city chooses to present itself to others.

3) My logical leap - and I don't think I'm going out on a limb here - is that Torontonians are just as prone as Vaughanites to compare themselves to other cities (especially New York) and hope people recognize they are better.
Just as we think we're better than New York (or at least cleaner and less crime ridden), so too does Vaughan's motto indicate they are delusional about being better than Toronto.

4) The condo marketing is only "proof" in that it shows how easy it is to sell the citizens of this ostensibly world class city on the romance of other, actual world class cities. There are no "Toronto" condominiums in Chicago because Chicagoans are secure enough in their identity to not deify outdated quotes by foreigners about how great they are in comparison to other cities. They have Carl Sandburg, Frank Sinatra and a lot more to rely on there.

I hope that explains where I was coming from; it was an indirect address of what was being said but not totally off-base.

 

[junctionist]

There are no "Toronto" condominiums in Chicago because Chicagoans are secure enough in their identity to not deify outdated quotes by foreigners about how great they are in comparison to other cities. They have Carl Sandburg, Frank Sinatra and a lot more to rely on there.

How do you know that Chicago has no buildings named or marketed with the names of other cities? No one names buildings the "Toronto" because we're a city whose crucial boom was in the midcentury modernist era, dominated by the international style, whose buildings you can find in both cities. Also, that style just isn't as romantic as Art Deco or Gothic revival skyscrapers.

 

[Disparishun]

Well, yes, I have actually, and I can't say that it's helping. and for Vaughan to call itself the city above Toronto in any way - from an urban point of view, architecturally, culturally, or clearly, in the realm of civic administration, is a pretentious joke for which they deserve to be richly mocked.

Pretentious? You doth protest too much, I think -- cheeky goading, certainly. Not to everyone's taste. Honestly, why care so much?

Vaughan is a corner of the suburban blob that extends beyond the City of Toronto, it could be amalgamated tomorrow with something else and disappear entirely as a separate municipality, and people would barely remember that it ever existed mere months later. In fact, that's its most likely fate.

That's because Vaughan was never a community, though -- just a township that was restructured in the sweeping amalgamations of 1971. The towns and villages which dotted the township -- Kleinburg, Woodbridge, Maple, Concord, Thornhill -- have long ceased to exist, and they are far from forgotten.

In fact, people still identify with them: ironically, people who have no connection whatsoever to what those places were pre-amalgamation. That's not mere months, either. It's more than thirty years.

 

[maestro]

4) The condo marketing is only "proof" in that it shows how easy it is to sell the citizens of this ostensibly world class city on the romance of other, actual world class cities.

Proof of what? That everything sold in spite of the marketing?

If anything, the romance of another city is mostly confined to the suburban areas. I don't see any condos named "Chicago" or New York themed PoMo in the city's core.

 

[Archivist]

TJ, if you believe that condo marketing means anything, then I assume that you also believe that Special K will make you slimmer or that teeth whiteners will make you smile more. Believe what you want.

Buildings all over the world reference New York. Tel Aviv, Shanghai, Rio, everywhere. Furthermore, New York has buildings that reference other cities (see, for example, "The London NYC"). The marketing is irritating, or even funny at times, like watching current ads for Chrysler on TV that makes their products actually seem buyable, but it says nothing, nothing at all, about the city.

 

[Transportfan]

Vaughan was never a community, though -- just a township that was restructured in the sweeping amalgamations of 1971. The towns and villages which dotted the township -- Kleinburg, Woodbridge, Maple, Concord, Thornhill -- have long ceased to exist, and they are far from forgotten.

In fact, people still identify with them: ironically, people who have no connection whatsoever to what those places were pre-amalgamation. That's not mere months, either. It's more than thirty years.

I wonder why Mississauga is so identified with as a city and not Vaughan. Both are reorganized municipalities that had no former status.

 

[Disparishun]

I wonder why Mississauga is so identified with as a city and not Vaughan. Both are reorganized municipalities that had no former status.

In Vaughan, all of the former communities continued to function, and no place functioned as Vaughan except for the town (eventually city) council. For instance, if you lived in Maple then you had a mailing address in Maple, Ontario, you went to Maple High School, you played for the Maple hockey team (or not), and so forth. Woodbridge on one side and Thornhill on the other were nearby by car, but quite geographically separate nonetheless.

Mississauga, well, I don't know much about Mississauga. You tell me.

 

[Anth]

Actually, Mississauga is similar in that many people still identify with Streetsville, Port Credit and the other former communities, but perhaps not as strongly as they do in Vaughan.

It could just be that Hazel was able to galvanize a city-wide identity with her strong personality. Mississauga was also rapidly building out at the same time immigrants poured into Canada in the 70s/80s and to them it was all "Toronto" anyway.

 

[Transportfan]

In Vaughan, all of the former communities continued to function, and no place functioned as Vaughan except for the town (eventually city) council. For instance, if you lived in Maple then you had a mailing address in Maple, Ontario, you went to Maple High School, you played for the Maple hockey team (or not), and so forth. Woodbridge on one side and Thornhill on the other were nearby by car, but quite geographically separate nonetheless.

Mississauga, well, I don't know much about Mississauga. You tell me.

I wonder if maybe it's because it has many older areas that look more like the suburban 416 and join the communities in a more urban way as opposed to the mostly backlotted arterials in York Region (Markham doesn't have a very strong civic identity either) that seperate the communitis quite distincly.

Also, Vaughan doesn't try to create an identity either. For example, there's a "Concord/Thornhill Sports Park", and even a fancy "Welcome to Woodbridge" sign eastbound on 7 at Weston Rd.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

You don't move to most places in the 905 because of their identity or wanting to be part of any community - more often than not, you wanted to be there because there isn't one (greenfield development). Is it any surprise then there isn't a strong sense of identity at most of these places? (now I can see certain areas being the exception)

Speaking of Mississauga - most people living there couldn't care less about identity - apathy tends ot be the general rule so long as basic needs are met.

AoD

 

[Disparishun]

It could just be that Hazel was able to galvanize a city-wide identity with her strong personality. Mississauga was also rapidly building out at the same time immigrants poured into Canada in the 70s/80s and to them it was all "Toronto" anyway.

Right on the first point. However, there has also been a fair bit of institution-building, hasn't there? For a long time, there have been "Mississauga" hockey teams and high schools and all the rest of it, no?

On the second point, that's equally true of Vaughan.

Also, Vaughan doesn't try to create an identity either. For example, there's a "Concord/Thornhill Sports Park", and even a fancy "Welcome to Woodbridge" sign eastbound on 7 at Weston Rd.

Right. Thornhill, Woodbridge, Kleinburg are still pretty distinct. In fact, they have almost nothing to do with each other.

I suspect one of the biggest differences between those and Mississauga, though, has to do with geographical contiguity. There is lots of space between Thornhill, Woodbridge, Kleinburg. (Less so Maple.) They don't exactly bleed into each other -- I mean, Kleinburg is a little town way out in the boonies, from the perspective of a Thornhiller.

So Vaughan is really a collection of distinct locations. Some of the space in between them is starting to get filled in with residential -- specifically, Maple and Concord are kind of expanding into extensions of Woodbridge and Thornhill, respectively, and maybe these will eventually even bleed into each other. But it's a long way off.

Isn't Mississauga kind of more filled in, as you move from Streetsville to Port Credit and so on?

 

[Anth]

However, there has also been a fair bit of institution-building, hasn't there? For a long time, there have been "Mississauga" hockey teams and high schools and all the rest of it, no?

Yes, but alongside institutions branded by community. The city itself seems to have an embrace-and-extend approach where it always incorporates the identities of the former communities into its umbrella brand. Like "Mississauga Library - Port Credit Branch" and so on.

I suspect one of the biggest differences between those and Mississauga, though, has to do with geographical contiguity.

...

Isn't Mississauga kind of more filled in, as you move from Streetsville to Port Credit and so on?

This is a really good point: Mississauga definitely is much more filled in and I imagine that continuity makes a big difference. Neighbourhood boundaries are quite fuzzy as they are in Toronto proper. Ask two people who live near Erin Mills Parkway and Eglinton about the part of Mississauga they live in and one will say they live in Erin Mills, while the other will say they live in Streetsville.

Though ultimately I agree with Alvin that most Mississaugans probably don't identify very strongly with their neighbourhoods or even the city as a whole.

 

[jimbobs]

He would almost certainly be an improvement. There are serious questions being asked about the integrity of the current mayor, and there were serious questions as well about the previous one. Politics in Vaughan seems to be a bit of a sideshow. Fantino, as an outsider, but with an established track record, would probably be what they need.

In an attempt to bring the thread back on topic:

Fantino? Established track record in what or as what?