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This discussion should become a catalyst for an overdue debate on whether public transit should just be free. We don't pay to pick up a book from a library, we don't pay for police to come to an emergency, we don't pay to enjoy public parks, then why are we paying for transit? It's not really a public service if not everyone can afford to use it.

However, if there is going to be a payment, then we should at the very least stop using the term "enforcement" and stop intimidation techniques such as police-like uniforms and massive fines. We should instead create a new staff role for fare verification and have them dressed in a transit uniform, conveying the appearance of customer service, not intimidation. TTC fare verifiers should be so common that you'll see them board on almost every ride. If someone is found without a fare, they're asked to leave. The vehicle doesn't move until they get off so peer pressure would play a role in the same way as it has for decades when someone disputed a fare with the driver who previously collected fares. If they don't get off, only then might they resort to special constables. Problematic fare evaders would become known to TTC staff and might result in calling for support.
 
^Be careful what you wish for. A free TTC would put ttc’s entire funding in the hands of politicians. By deriving some amount at the farebox, TTC is assured of a semi rational sort of control over some of its spending. If the pols had the option of declaring a tax break equal to the entire ttc budget, they would eventually gut service and take credit for lower taxes. Having a farebox puts a limit on how far they can go. It gives some rationality to subsidy as a % of revenue.

I liked both the Munro and Gee articles. While both have truth - I do agree that fare evasion is giving the pols an easy out over making proper funding decisions - I resonated most with Gee’s comments about there having to be some sort of a ‘contract’ among citizens over the things that we all agree to comply with in the interest of a civil city. I hate to see our transit system sink to something we respect so little that it becomes an extension of public toilets.... grotty and unpoliced.

There’s nothing compelling me to tip servers or delivery people, after all. Shall I just stop doing that because in theory tipping creates a barrier between poor people and eating properly? I don’t expect a uniformed inspector to turn up at the table to verify that I have tipped, but you can be sure that if non-tipping became a trend, there would be some form of countermeasure. I think we are better served to keep our eye on fare collection and find appropriate accomodations for those who truly can’t afford it. And don’t let the pols use fare evasion countermeasures as a reason to avoid better funding from the public purse.

- Paul
 
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MetroMan said:
This discussion should become a catalyst for an overdue debate on whether public transit should just be free. We don't pay to pick up a book from a library, we don't pay for police to come to an emergency, we don't pay to enjoy public parks, then why are we paying for transit? It's not really a public service if not everyone can afford to use it.

However, if there is going to be a payment, then we should at the very least stop using the term "enforcement" and stop intimidation techniques such as police-like uniforms and massive fines. We should instead create a new staff role for fare verification and have them dressed in a transit uniform, conveying the appearance of customer service, not intimidation. TTC fare verifiers should be so common that you'll see them board on almost every ride. If someone is found without a fare, they're asked to leave. The vehicle doesn't move until they get off so peer pressure would play a role in the same way as it has for decades when someone disputed a fare with the driver who previously collected fares. If they don't get off, only then might they resort to special constables. Problematic fare evaders would become known to TTC staff and might result in calling for support.
Click to expand...

Call them 'fare verifiers', 'revenue auditors' or whatever they like, and dress them in pink tutus, but at the end of the day, rules compliance (not wanting to use the 'e' word) implies consequence. What if they don't leave when asked? Some people don't give a whit about peer pressure, especially among people they don't know. Call a S/C? Unless they are readily available, meaning lots of them, that would only result in a vehicle full of angry riders (actually both scenarios would). Perhaps the TTC could shame the miscreant on social media.
Things like a wonky Presto system, ambiguous adult/youth cards and perhaps ambiguous transfer rules aside, so long as it's a fare-paid system, compliance methods will be required.
As for being fare-free, cool I suppose, providing city taxpayers are willing to foot the bill.
 
Admiral Beez said:
I thought we were talking about the TTC? Loblaws buffet has the same honour system, you pick what you want and they hope/assume you'll pay. But let's stick to the TTC.
Click to expand...

The original comment was along the lines of "of course Torontonians are evading the fare, they've never dealt with POP before". Which isn't true, because it's existed in the Toronto area for quite a while already.

As for the TTC specifically, sure, it's a more recent thing. POP was introduced on the Queen car in what, 1993?

Dan
 
MetroMan said:
This discussion should become a catalyst for an overdue debate on whether public transit should just be free. We don't pay to pick up a book from a library, we don't pay for police to come to an emergency, we don't pay to enjoy public parks, then why are we paying for transit? It's not really a public service if not everyone can afford to use it.

However, if there is going to be a payment, then we should at the very least stop using the term "enforcement" and stop intimidation techniques such as police-like uniforms and massive fines. We should instead create a new staff role for fare verification and have them dressed in a transit uniform, conveying the appearance of customer service, not intimidation. TTC fare verifiers should be so common that you'll see them board on almost every ride. If someone is found without a fare, they're asked to leave. The vehicle doesn't move until they get off so peer pressure would play a role in the same way as it has for decades when someone disputed a fare with the driver who previously collected fares. If they don't get off, only then might they resort to special constables. Problematic fare evaders would become known to TTC staff and might result in calling for support.
Click to expand...

When they are asked to leave, the "fare verifier" should follow them off and stay at the stop. If they get on the following vehicle, they follow them in their face, so to speak. If the still don't pay a fare, have them call the police.
 
I was just thinking back to the 90's when the province implemented Photo Radar on the expressways; something you could also call "speed limit evasion inspection." The radio stations went all in on reporting the precise locations where photo radar spots were setup. CFRB and 680 News had "photo radar alerts" every 10 minutes. Can you imagine if they did that for the TTC and fare inspectors! Well, you probably can't. Because driving at 140 on the 400 is your God given right, while anyone who doesn't pay $3.00 for a ride on the 501 is stealing from our children! They should be in jail for life!
 
I think fare evasion is a really big deal. It's not even the money and this has nothing to do with discussions about free transit or other TTC and social policy issues. If fares are charged and people are evading (I personally don't take transit often but when I do I see instances of someone mostly young men evading every single time) it degrades the trust that forms the basis of our civil society. The cultural and psychological factors are far more important than the monetary factors.
 
TrickyRicky said:
I think fare evasion is a really big deal. It's not even the money and this has nothing to do with discussions about free transit or other TTC and social policy issues. If fares are charged and people are evading (I personally don't take transit often but when I do I see instances of someone mostly young men evading every single time) it degrades the trust that forms the basis of our civil society. The cultural and psychological factors are far more important than the monetary factors.
Click to expand...
While I agree with you, it is really not always easy to be sure someone is a fare evader or someone who has already tapped at another vehicle and can't be bothered to do so again or someone who has a monthly or daily pass or even someone who is going to a subway where s/he will need to tap and doesn't want to get the PRESTO from their pocket twice.
 
I don’t know what sort of agreement YRT has with York Region Police but I’ve noticed that York Region Police at times do carry out fare inspection duties especially in Markham on VIVA. Other times York Region Police accompany Fare Inspectors during end of the month blitzes. Majority of the time setting up at busy connecting Terminals such as Promenade, Richmond Hill Centre and VMC.

Perhaps the TTC should look into this?
 
yrt+viva=1system said:
I don’t know what sort of agreement YRT has with York Region Police but I’ve noticed that York Region Police at times do carry out fare inspection duties especially in Markham on VIVA. Other times York Region Police accompany Fare Inspectors during end of the month blitzes. Majority of the time setting up at busy connecting Terminals such as Promenade, Richmond Hill Centre and VMC.

Perhaps the TTC should look into this?
Click to expand...

I doubt they could - TPS couldn't even get enough bodies to enforce traffic laws.

AoD
 
Voltz said:
Was there something released in the news about this?
Click to expand...

Only saw it on the Toronto Sun. It wasn't even a fare enforcement issue. The man was causing a disturbance and a few passengers reported him. They asked him to leave the train and he refused.

Mahoney said last Friday morning, two special constables were working with a couple of fare inspectors doing “proof of payment” checks on the 501 Queen streetcar when a special constable was approached by two females about a “disorderly male.”

The females indicated the man was “threatening customers,” he said.

When the two special constables went to speak to the man, he allegedly threatened and assaulted them, Mahoney said. The man allegedly continued to punch the officers until he was taken into custody, he added.

Toronto Police Const. Edward Parks told the Toronto Sun Sunday that Steven Thackerberry, 34, has been charged with two counts of assaulting peace officers, two counts of uttering death threats and one count of failing to leave (the streetcar) as directed.
Click to expand...

torontosun.com

LEVY: Were TTC special constables thrown under the bus?

A TTC special constable told the
torontosun.com torontosun.com

For once, the Toronto Sun gets something right.
 
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