[Admiral Beez]

the thought did occur to me that some kind of fare activated gate or turnstile would eventually be needed if the drivers (or other employee) were no longer acting as fare collectors, which seems to have become the case with the TTC

It does seem rather counterintuitive that the TTC thought that removing the operator‘s fare collection role and allowing entry at all doors without any interaction with TTC fare collection staff wouldn’t immediately result in a jump in fare evasion.

If we thought the honour system worked, why didn’t we from the 1950s to now just put an unmanned bucket at the door of the subway station and be rid of the collector staff and turnstiles?

 

[Jasmine18]

Unsure why people thought Honour System would work in Toronto.

You know how many wasteyuths and wastemans are in Toronto XD

 

[Jonny5]

It does seem rather counterintuitive that the TTC thought that removing the operator‘s fare collection role and allowing entry at all doors without any interaction with TTC fare collection staff wouldn’t immediately result in a jump in fare evasion.

If we thought the honour system worked, why didn’t we from the 1950s to now just put an unmanned bucket at the door of the subway station and be rid of the collector staff and turnstiles?

They knew. They hired a slew of fare enforcement people for it and put in a massive fine, not enough enforcement, but they did have them there for it. What they didn't expect, because they were so insulated and sheltered from it, was how the middle class working users of the system had developed such an enormous disdain for the TTC because of constant incompetence, memories of the wildcat strike, the benefits corruption scandal, short turns, and general deterioration of the system, that they would willingly choose to stop paying out of simple spite for the organisation. It was to show the TTC the "World's Best Transit Operator" was considered abject shit by its own riders.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Just put turnstiles back onto the streetcars and buses and replace the silly gates with the full length , floor to ceiling turnstiles we had before. Have a separate door for strollers, wheelchairs, etc.

Will it slow down egress and entry? Sure, but it always did in all the years of public transit in Toronto and somehow we got by.

 

[DSCToronto]

It does seem rather counterintuitive that the TTC thought that removing the operator‘s fare collection role and allowing entry at all doors without any interaction with TTC fare collection staff wouldn’t immediately result in a jump in fare evasion.

If we thought the honour system worked, why didn’t we from the 1950s to now just put an unmanned bucket at the door of the subway station and be rid of the collector staff and turnstiles?

They clearly knew that they would need fare inspectors and hired some but not enough and the initial (and, to a lesser extent, ongoing) failures of the PRESTO system made fare inspection very difficult as there really was a good chance someone had paid (or tried to pay).. There is also the problem that if you are heading to a subway (where not paying is much harder) you will not bother to fight your way to a (working) PRESTO machine on a streetcar or even bother to get your card out of your pocket because YOU know you will be paying @ the subway. As all-door boarding of streetcars is clearly OK, customers seem to think it is always OK on buses too (which have rear-door PRESTO machines.) It will take LOTS of obvious enforcement for several months to undo the 'learning experience" of the first few months where it really was not necessary to pay as the likelihood of being inspected was negligible.

 

[smallspy]

Unsure why people thought Honour System would work in Toronto.

Perhaps because it's worked in Toronto since 1984?

Dan

 

[Admiral Beez]

Perhaps because it's worked in Toronto since 1984?

Dan

"It has worked since'...." suggests it still does. You think the honour system is working? IDK.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The way the stop fare evasion is to collect the fare before entry is permitted. Everything else is chasing evasion after the fact. Here’s a turnstile on a Moscow streetcar, for example. No evasion here. Prevent entry at exit doors, and you’re all set.

Some other examples of active fare evasion tools, as opposed to reactive or passive. You can still have a operator-activated door for wheelchairs and strollers.

An impossibility for accessible buses/streetcars.

AoD

 

[Admiral Beez]

An impossibility for accessible buses/streetcars.

Those examples, perhaps. The best course is to have a fare collector/inspector on every bus and streetcar. Just like my Grandad's Routemaster.

We can fund the second staff through a few means. First, end the free rides for youth (you don't give away your product/service to captive customers, but only to customers who have options). Second, cancel the staffing cost of the roving fare enforcement goons. Third, new revenues as fare evaders will pay their fare (though, some will avoid transit altogether).

The fare collector/inspector on each bus and streetcar will also encourage safety of both the passengers and operator, reduce littering, begging/soliciting, vandalism, graffiti and help those with disabilities and strollers, plus people needing directions.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Those examples, perhaps. The best course is to have a fare collector/inspector on every bus and streetcar. Just like my Grandad's Routemaster.

We can fund the second staff through a few means. First, end the free rides for youth (you don't give away your product/service to captive customers, but only to customers who have options). Second, cancel the staffing cost of the roving fare enforcement goons. Third, new revenues as fare evaders will pay their fare (though, some will avoid transit altogether).

The fare collector/inspector on each bus and streetcar will also encourage safety of both the passengers and operator, reduce littering, begging/soliciting, vandalism, graffiti and help those with disabilities and strollers, plus people needing directions.

I highly doubt the benefit of adding a second staff will be breakeven - you are basically doubling the labour cost of each vehicle operated (when we already know buses in general does not recover it via fares even now).

AoD

 

[Admiral Beez]

I highly doubt the benefit of adding a second staff will be breakeven - you are basically doubling the labour cost of each vehicle operated (when we already know buses in general does not recover it via fares even now).

If we don't have effective barriers or staff that actively demand payment before entry, I don't see how we can prevent fare evasion.

So, what's your solution for stopping/reducing fare evasion?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

If we don't have effective barriers or staff that actively demand payment before entry, I don't see how we can prevent fare evasion.

So, what's your solution for stopping/reducing fare evasion?

Pick your battles? I'd focus more on places where you can police more effectively - fixed routes and subways. Unless the person is only riding the bus, at some point on their journey they'd have to evade fares again.

AoD

 

[smallspy]

"It has worked since'...." suggests it still does. You think the honour system is working? IDK.

GO Transit has operated as POP since 1984. Are you suggesting that it's not?

Dan

 

[tiffer24]

The focus on TTC fare evasion diverts attention from the need for better funding and service.

https://nowtoronto.com/news/fare-evasion-diverts-attention-from-ttc-s-real-woes/

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The focus on TTC fare evasion diverts attention from the need for better funding and service.

https://nowtoronto.com/news/fare-evasion-diverts-attention-from-ttc-s-real-woes/

It's not really an either or - I see tackling fare evasion as a matter of ensuring compliance with rules and less with actual recovery of fares. I strongly support providing an avenue for discounted fare while ending the free-for-all, devil may care attitude about bylaw violations.

AoD