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- Thread starter Long Island Mike
- Start date
Voltz
Senior Member
That video shows nothing that happened leading up to this, and i highly doubt he was just jumped and sprayed for not having paid a fare. Don't like all this jumping to conclusions and vilifying the officers that is happening on twitter, especially from some City Councillors.
Northern Light
Superstar
Agreed, completely.
The concept of proportionality seems lost on those 'officers'.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I've seen enough of these guys in action to know better than to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Special Constable and Transit Enforcement units habitually get themselves into these controversies, despite both units being rather tiny in size (IIRC, the Special Constable unit only has a few dozen officers). Either their training, or standard of care (perhaps the officers just don't give a damn) aren't up to the standard set by TPS officers. And I'm no fan of the TPS either.
And regardless, there's almost no situation in which a $3.25 fare dispute should lead to peperspray being deployed (and getting sprayed all over your partners back, too). If Toronto Police had pepper sprayed somebody over a stolen chocolate bar, or an unpaid Green P ticket, it would rightfully be big controversy. As peace officers, the Special Constables deserve to be held the the same standard. Proportionality matters.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
The TTC really needs to put their officers on a leash. At the very least, for PRs sake. Videos like these out of the United States have lead to incresingly vocal calls for fare enforcement units, or transit fares themselves, to be disbanded. Right now its a bit of a fringe movement, but in this day in and age it, fringe movements can very rapidly turn into legislative change. At the very least, it might lead to Councillors being hesitant to support any future fare enforcement initiatives that the TTC might want to pursue, including their recently proposed plan to hire undercover fare enforcement officers. TTC can't afford to turn a blind eye to the conduct of their officers. The TTC, and their officers, operate at the pleasure of the public, not the other way around.
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Voltz
Senior Member
So I wonder if a full account of this incident, including the video surveillance, does shows that it was not the shocking unjustified assault that those who jumped to conclusions with limited information claimed it to be, will those people admit they were wrong and apologize to the officers they have publicly accused of criminal offences?
Same thing happened at Union Station a few years ago where some limited video of an incident involving TTC Special Constables had many outraged, but a full investigation of the incident with video showed their actions were justified.
Same thing happened at Union Station a few years ago where some limited video of an incident involving TTC Special Constables had many outraged, but a full investigation of the incident with video showed their actions were justified.
crs1026
Superstar
^Totally agree that no one should be declaring a position without the full story. This is social media piling-on at its worst. I’m disappointed in certain “influencers” who have already played judge and jury when the facts aren’t in.
That’s not to say that the footage isn’t disturbing. It’s reasonably clear (at face value, anyways) that the individual is seated. I can’t imagine why force would be used against a non-compliant individual who just sits in their seat. That’s why we need this fully explained.
We all have our views on the enforcement staff (my impression of ttc is poor, but my impression of GO personnel is very positive) but there are plenty of deadbeats out there. There may be fault on both sides.
I keep seeing people tweeting about the disparity between fines over TTC fares and fines for bad driving. I agree that the disparity is there, and that’s unjust. But that does not mean that fare evasion is okay. Maybe we should be increasing effective traffic fines but keeping ttc fines where they are.
- Paul
That’s not to say that the footage isn’t disturbing. It’s reasonably clear (at face value, anyways) that the individual is seated. I can’t imagine why force would be used against a non-compliant individual who just sits in their seat. That’s why we need this fully explained.
We all have our views on the enforcement staff (my impression of ttc is poor, but my impression of GO personnel is very positive) but there are plenty of deadbeats out there. There may be fault on both sides.
I keep seeing people tweeting about the disparity between fines over TTC fares and fines for bad driving. I agree that the disparity is there, and that’s unjust. But that does not mean that fare evasion is okay. Maybe we should be increasing effective traffic fines but keeping ttc fines where they are.
- Paul
W. K. Lis
Superstar
The main problem with smartphone videos is that they usually start recording after some prior incident. That's why the severance video and audio leading up to and after the incident is needed before making any comment.
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MetroMan
Senior Member
Reading the full account from the witness who shot the video, this passenger was already being confrontational, kicking off his shoes when he first sat down and shouting at passengers. The fare check may have lead to the first contact with him but it appears as though it was the guy‘s belligerence that lead to the escalation. Fare inspectors are also Special Constables empowered by the Toronto Police to enforce the law. Not just TTC bylaws but the law.
On the other hand, situations like these will become more frequent as more fare enforcement is taking place. I think now’s a good time to have a conversation about the need to lower or even eliminate transit fares. It’s not public transit if some of the public cannot afford to use it.
On the other hand, situations like these will become more frequent as more fare enforcement is taking place. I think now’s a good time to have a conversation about the need to lower or even eliminate transit fares. It’s not public transit if some of the public cannot afford to use it.
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ShonTron
Moderator
thaivic
Active Member
Until we see what exactly happened we should not rush to judgement, we are only seeing the end of the recording.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
When I was a lad in London, UK my grandfather was a doubledecker bus driver. On the bus was a second employee, the fare collector. Fare evasion was nigh impossible. So, put a second staffer on each POP car, and reduce the number of doors for entry. Basically take us back three generations.
Northern Light
Superstar
This to me is key; first and foremost, on the fare issue, can anyone imagine a parking enforcement officer having a similar confrontation over a ticket?
The answer ought to be 'no'.
Perhaps even more apt; the Toronto Police are increasingly not responding to 'shoplifting' cases.
Often with far more at issue than $3.20
****
The man's other behavior issues seem to suggest illness/intoxication etc.
That certainly suggests a heavy-handed response is inappropriate, assuming it ever were appropriate.
But there are so many non-violent ways to address this.
You stop the vehicle, you ask other passengers to leave, you take it out of service, you turn off the heat......
You wait for the (not so) nice man to find somewhere else to be.
I fail to understand why this has to get violent.
44 North
Senior Member
That sounds...like a terrible idea.