[rbt]

I think the obsession with hydro corridors is becuase since the land is there, the capital costs will be much cheaper. That is the only reason why people would want to build in such remote locations.

Cheaper depends on how much the Hydro One will charge in ground rent.

It's one of those hands-off crown corps that Harris wanted to privatize (and Hudak probably will).

 

[Justin10000]

Because a lot of those people are headed to the subway in the morning, and away from the subway in the afternoon. The buses are packed going into Finch in the morning, and packed when they leave in the afternoon. And you're making the assumption that nobody will use the busway because everyone is only using the bus to go a couple of blocks, which isn't the case.

Where are those people boarding the bus? From the many stops on Finch! It's part of the strong local nature of the corridor! Again, how does a busway north of Finch with 1km stop spacing going to serve those riders? You making the assumption there is strong demand between Humber and the Subway, which is not the case. Any improvement must be made on Finch. Not in a hydro corridor. I am not going to make assumption about the demand, but I doubt there are many riders travelling to Humber from Yonge on the Finch bus, especially when GO already serves Humber from York Mills and Yorkdale.

So please explain to me how a route that runs 90% in a dedicated busway, has 50% fewer stops, and would have the exact same connection to Finch West Station be so much worse than an LRT? It would be faster, and it would get people from the subway to Humber College QUICKLY, something that an LRT stopping every 600m can't do.

Again, this is where your argument fails! It must be repeated over and over again: The demand in the Finch corridor is LOCAL. All you see is Humber and the subway station, and without even considering the demand between the two, you plop a busway in a area considered to be cheap land, and voila! Problem solved, in your mind.
Considering the location of Humber, I am willing to bet there isn't that many riders using the Finch bus between the subway and Humber, especially when there is a half-hourly GO bus that serves the college from York Mills, and Yorkdale, and is much faster than the Finch bus! Concerning the connection to Finch West Station, the busway would be at least 400m away. How is that a better connection than what have been provided at Finch and Keele?

Is that why it was included in the TTC's plan before it was scrapped in Transit City? It was studied, it was found that it would work, and it was included in the transit plan.

The TTC studied the idea, found the idea would not work, and scrapped it. The demand is on Finch, and many riders live south of Finch. The hydro corridor is too far to satisfy those riders, which constitutes the majority of riders on Finch.

It's not remote. It's not inaccessible (unless you're too lazy to walk 300m, in which case I pity you). And it will be effective.

It is too remote, especially since many riders live south of Finch. (and for the record, considering I exercise twice daily, I am in far better shape than you! ). You're assuming everyone lives in the centre of Finch Avenue! haha!

I still don't get how you can honestly argue that an option that serves BOTH local needs AND regional needs is better than a modest improvement on the existing bus service, especially when those two options would cost the same amount of money.

I do not get how you can honestly argue for a busway in a corridor that clearly has strong local demand, and needs better service ON Finch and I am not talking about HOV lanes, or longer buses. It has be to either LRT, and in this case median bus lanes. The busway would be a boondoggle(I hate using that word, but it seems appropriate in this case), for the simple fact that it would be costly to build, and won't relieve the pressure on Finch, and will not be attractive to riders.

Here, we have a case where there is a really strong local demand along the route, yet you want to build a busway in a hydro corridor that is not close to the demand, will actuallty be expensive to build, and from a glance on Google Maps, will actually mae the trip to Humber LONGER, since corridor veers away from Finch.

 

[Electrify]

Where are those people boarding the bus? From the many stops on Finch! It's part of the strong local nature of the corridor! Again, how does a busway north of Finch with 1km stop spacing going to serve those riders? You making the assumption there is strong demand between Humber and the Subway, which is not the case. Any improvement must be made on Finch. Not in a hydro corridor. I am not going to make assumption about the demand, but I doubt there are many riders travelling to Humber from Yonge on the Finch bus, especially when GO already serves Humber from York Mills and Yorkdale.

As I already pointed out, there is also a lot of residential north of Finch and around the hydro corridor. Currently these people already have to walk to Finch or even Steeles to catch a west-east bus route. If a bus ran along the hydro corridor, even with limited stops, it would improve their access to transit immensely.

Again, this is where your argument fails! It must be repeated over and over again: The demand in the Finch corridor is LOCAL. All you see is Humber and the subway station, and without even considering the demand between the two, you plop a busway in a area considered to be cheap land, and voila! Problem solved, in your mind.

If that were the case, it would run express between the two with no stops in between. No one here is proposing that.

It is too remote, especially since many riders live south of Finch. (and for the record, considering I exercise twice daily, I am in far better shape than you! ). You're assuming everyone lives in the centre of Finch Avenue! haha!

And you're assuming no one lives north of Finch.

I do not get how you can honestly argue for a busway in a corridor that clearly has strong local demand, and needs better service ON Finch and I am not talking about HOV lanes, or longer buses. It has be to either LRT, and in this case median bus lanes. The busway would be a boondoggle(I hate using that word, but it seems appropriate in this case), for the simple fact that it would be costly to build, and won't relieve the pressure on Finch, and will not be attractive to riders.

Here, we have a case where there is a really strong local demand along the route, yet you want to build a busway in a hydro corridor that is not close to the demand, will actually be expensive to build, and from a glance on Google Maps, will actually mae the trip to Humber LONGER, since corridor veers away from Finch.

He is proposing improvements on Finch as well with HOV lanes, which is far more than what I was proposing (simply keeping frequent service along Finch and let the busway do its magic. EDIT: This refers to the parts where it runs in the busway, when on Finch it would run in an HOV lane). And not only are people willing to walk further to access faster transit, but we shouldn't forget about those who currently drive and would switch to transit if it was faster. Through all the talk about city building and accessibility, we should not forget that one of transit's primary goals is to get cars off the road by providing a quality alternative to driving.

 

[Electrify]

I just drew up a fantasy map of what a Finch West BRT line would look like. For the record, the reason why I didn't make the busway the full stretch is because with the Spadina subway extension and other logistical issues involving the reservoir, it might be more straightforward to just run it along Finch for its eastern stretch.

When on Finch Ave, it would run in an HOV lane. With the exception of Tobermory, all stops are at transfer points along the line.

List of stops from west to east:

1. Humber College
2. Highway 27
3. Martin Grove
4. Albion/Albion Mall West
5. Kipling/Albion Mall East
6. Islington
7. Milvan
8. Weston
9. Signet
10. Norfinch
11. Jane/Driftwood
12. Tobermory
13. Sentinel
14. Keele/Finch West Station
15. Alness
16. Dufferin
17. Wilmington
18. Bathurst
19. Grantbrook/Senlac
20. Finch Station

 

[doady]

I think busway in the hydro corridor is built, it should be built primarily for regional transit, connecting the Mississauga and 407 Transitways. I think building it primarily for local transit is a bad idea.

Also, I think the Finch bus should be extended to Westwood Mall and become a complete route before any improvement, on-street BRT, LRT, or grade-separated transitway, is discussed. Otherwise, y'all just jumping the gun.

 

[Rainforest]

I just drew up a fantasy map of what a Finch West BRT line would look like. For the record, the reason why I didn't make the busway the full stretch is because with the Spadina subway extension and other logistical issues involving the reservoir, it might be more straightforward to just run it along Finch for its eastern stretch.

What's the expected travel time reduction due to the use of hydro corridor for 5.5 km (just between Dufferin and Signet), versus using street-median lanes?

In street-median: 23kph, 5.5 x 60 / 23 = 14 min

In hydro corridor: 30kph, 5.5 x 60 / 30 = 11 min

And to save those 3 min, you'd have to build new crossings over/under Hwy 400 and over Black Creek.

 

[Rainforest]

I think busway in the hydro corridor is built, it should be built primarily for regional transit, connecting the Mississauga and 407 Transitways. I think building it primarily for local transit is a bad idea.

Agreed, on both counts.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

And to save those 3 min, you'd have to build new crossings over/under Hwy 400 and over Black Creek.

Would the city even be allowed to build an overpass on the Hydro lands?

 

[Asterix]

As I already pointed out, there is also a lot of residential north of Finch and around the hydro corridor. Currently these people already have to walk to Finch or even Steeles to catch a west-east bus route. If a bus ran along the hydro corridor, even with limited stops, it would improve their access to transit immensely.

No it wouldn't. You should look at how that would work based on the current TTC route map.

Since you are only planning on having a few stops for the hydro corridor line, I presume you'd only be putting them at major points - major cross-streets. Anyone for whom the hydro corridor would be closer than going to Finch or to Steeles would still have to go to these major cross-streets, all of which have existing bus service on them.

The only way it would "improve their access to transit immensely" would be if you put closer spaced stops along the hydro corridor at places for which there is nothing immediately adjacent, kind of defeating the whole purpose of why you want that line in the first place.

 

[Justin10000]

As I already pointed out, there is also a lot of residential north of Finch and around the hydro corridor. Currently these people already have to walk to Finch or even Steeles to catch a west-east bus route. If a bus ran along the hydro corridor, even with limited stops, it would improve their access to transit immensely.

Much of the residential is closer to Steeles, people are not walking to Finch. A hydro busway is not going to improve their trip much, and we're talking how to improve the travel for the heavy local demand on Finch. You guys are trying to turn this into a regional issue, which is wrong.

And you're assuming no one lives north of Finch.

You're the one who is bringing up residents north of Finch. The issue is improving transit for the heavy LOCAL demand along Finch. Residents north of the hydro corridor tend to use the Steeles bus, or the north-south buses.

He is proposing improvements on Finch as well with HOV lanes, which is far more than what I was proposing (simply keeping frequent service along Finch and let the busway do its magic). And not only are people willing to walk further to access faster transit, but we shouldn't forget about those who currently drive and would switch to transit if it was faster. Through all the talk about city building and accessibility, we should not forget that one of transit's primary goals is to get cars off the road by providing a quality alternative to driving.

Walker!! I heard much of that quote on his site. Mr. Walker does seem to have bias towards regional transit, which is OK, but he does not consider the importance of local transit. The issue here is improving transit where much of the demand is local. People are willing to walk to faster transit, but there is a limit. The TTC determined the hydro corridor is beyond that limit, and scrapped the idea in the past, I can guess they brought it back only to provide an alternative.

Putting transit in a remote location, away from where people want to go is not providing a quality alternative to driving, and is not going to get cars off the road. Who cares if the bus can reach it's top speed, if you're bypassing where you want to go, and have to walk back? Not only that, you have to put transit where people can see it, and that is on the roads(or under them, if the demand warrants it). Putting buses in a hydro corridor is only affirming Ford's belief transit should be out of the way, and out of sight.

I am really trying to understand this obsession with using a hyrdo corridor for transit. It's make little sense, especially considering hydro utilities might not even want to allow transit in their corridors.

 

[sixrings]

What's the expected travel time reduction due to the use of hydro corridor for 5.5 km (just between Dufferin and Signet), versus using street-median lanes?

In street-median: 23kph, 5.5 x 60 / 23 = 14 min

In hydro corridor: 30kph, 5.5 x 60 / 30 = 11 min

And to save those 3 min, you'd have to build new crossings over/under Hwy 400 and over Black Creek.

How long does it take the average person to walk 300M? if its more then 2 minutes what would be the purpose of this project? to Save 1 minute? Even to save 3 minutes doesnt seem like a worth while project. The benefits of LRT was that it would have provided a little faster service. But more importantly it would have provided reliable comfortable service.. The reality is that if people want to get to the subway quicker or downtown quicker they should simply move closer to one or the other... There is never going to be a magically formula to fix the suburb mess. LRTs though would have main a painfully long cummute more manageable.

 

[Thoughtless Miscreant]

How long does it take the average person to walk 300M? if its more then 2 minutes what would be the purpose of this project? to Save 1 minute? Even to save 3 minutes doesnt seem like a worth while project. The benefits of LRT was that it would have provided a little faster service. But more importantly it would have provided reliable comfortable service.. The reality is that if people want to get to the subway quicker or downtown quicker they should simply move closer to one or the other... There is never going to be a magically formula to fix the suburb mess. LRTs though would have main a painfully long cummute more manageable.

300m is like a four minute walk. And a lot of people would be walking both to and from the corridor on a single trip.

 

[sixrings]

4 min walk = end of discussion

 

[Amy Rose]

Cheaper depends on how much the Hydro One will charge in ground rent.

It's one of those hands-off crown corps that Harris wanted to privatize (and Hudak probably will).

I don't think Hydro One wants to be liable when this happens when one of the articulated buses, packed or half gets crushed under this

 

[doady]

Although I think busway in the hydro corridor for local transit is a not a great idea, I also think that opponents to this idea exaggerate the difference the 400m from Finch itself makes.

First off, I don't think we should have the same standard for walking distance for all forms of transit. A grade-separated transitway is not the same as bus-only or queue-jump lanes on the street, let alone buses in mixed traffic. People will walk further if there is more transit priority measures, and certainly grade-separation is a major transit priority measure. Otherwise, you could use the same walking distance argument to oppose any limited stop, higher-order transit service along Finch, whether it be BRT, LRT, or subway, no matter if it is on Finch itself or in the hydro corridor, because any higher order transit will ultimately involve longer walking distances.

Secondly, the hydro corridor will mean longer walking distances for some, but also short walking distances for others. It will not increase walking distances for everybody.

Finch BRT/LRT on the street I didn't mind so much - it was the plans for the on-street Eglinton LRT that bothered me, considering the availability of huge ROWs directly adjacent to Eglinton on both sides. Local rapid transit along Eglinton definitely should have been taken off the street, not only to save money, but also to vastly improve transit. For Finch, taking local transit off the street would not be as big an improvement, considering the distance. Finch hydro busway would be for regional transit mostly, which is important also, but don't expect to replace the existing bus service on Finch itself.